Podcast Transcript

Episode 24: The Powerful Megan Jayne Crabbe: Her Path to Body Positivity

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam!

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome, we would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Sam: Hello and welcome back to another episode of All Bodies. All Foods. We are so lucky today, we have an amazing guest, author, social media content creator, best known for her work with body positivity, Megan Jayne Crabbe. Welcome to the show!

Megan: Hello! Thank you so much for having me.

Sam: We are so thrilled.

Ashley: Yes.

Sam: We have so many questions. I read your book, and I know as a mental health provider, so many folks I’ve worked with in eating disorder recovery have also read your book. I’ve seen them carrying it around in treatment centers. You’ve really impacted so many people and for the listeners out there, the book is called Body Positive Power: How to stop dieting, make peace with your body and live. And as I was reading through it, there was, it was packed with so much helpful information! There were these, like, shocking statistics where you’re reading it and you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize.” Research studies you threw in there, and so many vulnerable moments when you were struggling with your relationship with food, with your relationship with your body, and ultimately your path to recovery. But I was really wondering, what inspired you to put this together, to share all of this vulnerable stuff, and to really put it out there for the world to read?

Megan: Oh my gosh. What a question! First of all, thank you for telling me those things, and being so kind. I think books changed the game for me. When I started learning about body positivity, and diet culture, and fatphobia, and all these concepts that I first came across through social media, it was books, and especially ones that laid out the facts, that showed the research, that really solidified everything in my mind. Just the fact that we have evidence that this is why we hate our bodies, these are the reasons why we feel the way we do about food. This is how much money is made from us having disordered relationships with food and our bodies. Seeing that in black and white, “This has been proven,” really gave me so much strength to turn away from diet culture and go towards body acceptance and embrace that path. So, when I found myself with an opportunity to write a book but slightly updated, you know, a lot of the books that I loved were quite Nineties, so… The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, a book called No Fat Chicks. Losing It by Laura Fraser. Really brilliant feminist works around bodies and around diet culture, but not necessarily for the social media age.

Ashley: Right.

Sam: Right.

Megan: And there were things to add. So, I added my own experience, and I added everything that I could gather up to make it relevant to now. But actually, everything that they wrote is still relevant. That’s the sad fact of it, you know. Diet culture hasn’t gone anywhere, it’s just shape shifted. And that’s one thing I really wanted to point out is, “Look at all these different disguises that diet culture comes in. Now you can spot it in the world as well.” And I just, there was no way I wasn’t gonna write that. I think from day one, my main thing has been, “Wow, I spent the majority of my life not knowing these concepts, not knowing that a life without hating your body was even possible.” Of course, I’m gonna write about that. Of course, I’m gonna shout about that. I’m gonna post about that every day. I’m just gonna let other people know in any way I can, and the book just is the culmination of everything, everything I know, and I think the most meaningful way I’ve done that.

Ashley: That’s awesome.

Sam: And it’s such an easy read. It’s so, you just, I mean, I read it, I think, in a few days because it’s so engaging. You know, it’s so interesting and funny. You know, there are so many parts where you can really tell that you have such a great sense of humor. And I really encourage listeners out there, especially folks who are struggling with body image. Wow, such a powerful read.

Megan: Thank you so much, Sam.

Sam: Yeah! And, you know it, Megan, you talk about, you mentioned body acceptance. Was there sort of, would you say you had to move first into body acceptance and then body positivity, or, what was that journey like for you?

Sam: Well, I don’t know about you both, but I have kind of changed the words that I use over time, and as a community, I think the, let’s call it the Body Liberation Community, we have changed our definitions of certain things and certain terms debated, and body positivity is a term that has been massively debated. And from where I’m at, when I’m talking about the personal, when I’m talking about my individual relationship with my body, I tend to use “body acceptance,” because I think that is more about how you feel about yourself, the work you do on yourself with your body, and I reserve “body positivity” for when there’s more of a, I guess, a political aspect to it. When it’s more about liberation, when it’s about talking about bodies outside of my own, and the hierarchy of bodies, and fatphobia, and ableism and racism, and transphobia, and all the other aspects of body positivity. To me that’s the wider conversation, and body acceptance, that’s what I’ve done. I have worked on that for myself. Does that make sense?

Sam: Mhm.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

Ashley: I think that is a beautiful way of explaining that. Yeah. Thank you. Megan, I’m curious— so I kind of want to back it up a little bit. I know, get it on back. So five-year-old Megan, you talked about in your book how you even at that young age recognized body image issues. And I know, something just, like, in the work that I’ve done in the eating disorder community. I mean, I’ve heard people say that body image, you know, peaks for young people around the age of nine, which I’ve always thought was young, and yet here you come, and you mentioned five years old. So, I’m curious, what— could you share with us maybe, like, what was going on in that time in your life, or what do you think some of the contributing factors were? Or how do you even remember at five years old, noticing your body?

Megan: I think it coincided with starting school.

Ashley: Okay.

Megan: So that was the first year I went to school. So, the first year I was kind of surrounded by peers who I could compare myself to. I remember shopping for school uniforms and having to deal with what size the uniform was gonna be, and it was, like, a slightly older size, because when you’re a kid sized by age. It was an older size than the age I was, and that standing out to me. Entering a new environment where I didn’t really… I was overwhelmed, didn’t know much of what was going on or how things worked. But I noticed that when I sat in the school chair, my legs took up more space than the girl next to me. I think, there were probably just lots of feelings of difference, in terms of my size, in terms of, I grew up in a majority, nearly completely white community. So, I felt different in that respect as well. And I think that was the first time my brain latched onto, “My body is the problem,” or the reason I felt discomfort. In reality, at five years old, you start school, there’s loads of legitimate reasons to feel overwhelmed, or nervous, or anxious. But I think that was the first time my brain thought, “OK, we feel all these things, let’s find the reason, must be the body.” So that’s when that clicked.

Sam: Mmm. Wow.

Ashley: Do you remember how that maybe impacted you as a young person?

Megan: I think it was just a lot of hyper awareness. A lot of being conscious of myself, probably some body checking, you know, playing with my uniform, pulling skirts down, being conscious of how I sat around others, whether I’m kind of sucking in. I started sucking in very young. So that awareness, which no child should have. Obviously you should just be in your life and in your day. And so that’s how that manifested. And it was, I think a few years later, when I started to have a little bit of control over my food and choice there, that’s when it started to manifest in the dieting behaviors.

Ashley: I’ve, I just find that so interesting. I’ve been reading a lot, or seeing, I’m sure everybody’s kind of seeing right now, the commercials that the Dove campaign is putting out, with, as you mentioned kind of earlier, like even the work that you read that was so helpful, having some updated language with social media. And now just with that, with our young people being hit with those messages constantly now, and your little brains just not even knowing “What does all of this mean?”  yet, you know, and just having that messaging being sent into us so early now, really gets me fired up about combating the, you know, the diet industry and the fatphobia, and all of that messaging,

Megan: Right. And I think so often when we’re young, especially if we experience an uncomfortable emotion, we make our own conclusions.

Ashley: Right.

Megan: You know, we gather up our evidence and we make conclusions that make sense to us. And when you’re being offered so much evidence of, “This is why you feel this way. This is the problem.” It’s just, it’s no wonder, no wonder we reach those conclusions about ourselves and our bodies.

Sam: Yeah. It’s sort of, it’s very validating when we can finally say that. It’s like, “No wonder we’re feeling this way. We’re bombarded with all of this.” You know, in your book, you really take us down memory lane. You know, when you were a little girl and as sort of your relationship with your body and food sort of changed. And there were a few moments in the book that were really powerful to me. When you opened up to your dad about struggling, you opened up to your dad about some of the feelings you were having about your body and the cycles, the eating disorder cycle that you were really stuck in. And there were a lot of parents, I think, who listen to this podcast, and it might be helpful, I’m wondering if you could share, what do you think you needed from your dad in those moments? And how can parents, if their kid comes to them, their kid is five or six and says, “My body is the problem, something’s wrong with me. I don’t look like the others.” What do you think, how can parents, you know, how can parents take care of their child in that moment?

Megan: It’s a big question. But I think the most helpful thing that my parents, my dad in particular, did, was listen nonjudgmentally, unconditionally, was just willing to sit with me and let me say whatever and, you know, validated, validated how I was feeling. And he’s not someone who understood, when I was going through anorexia he had no knowledge of it, no experience of it. But he was just willing to be there and listen. And in the end that’s what I needed the most. I think we need to be validated and not patronized, especially when you’re a young person, when you’re a kid, not have how you feel be undermined and patronized. And I think for parents, first of all, having the, the knowledge yourself, which anyone who’s listening to this podcast is gonna have a knowledge or appreciation of diet culture and of fatphobia and things like that. But being able to have that for yourself and have done some inner-work for yourself, some healing for yourself, so that you can model positive body image for your child, so that you understand where those feelings might be coming from. And I think for very young children, it’s never too early, in my opinion, to teach them about body diversity, and to explain that people are supposed to look different, and to talk about the word “fat” and how, you know, lots of people use it in a negative way, but it doesn’t have to be that. It can be like “tall” or “brunette,” “blue eyed.” And, you know, these lessons they can easily be distilled for children, and I don’t think it’s ever too young. But I think the most important thing you can do is model these values in yourself and heal, heal your own body image and show them that. Because that’s what they absorb the most of, right?

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, they totally— I have a year-and-a-half-year-old baby girl right now, Megan, and she totally, exactly what you’re saying, she repeats everything that we are doing. And one of my favorite, favorite things that I’ve been able to do with her is read books, and read books that hopefully she’ll understand, but books about all sorts of diversity and how everybody belongs. And it is just, I even find it when I’m reading it to her, because I’m like, “I want you to have this value. I want you to have this value.” I’m getting, like, so excited and, like, amped up, you know, even by the end of the book, I’m like, “Yes, we’re all wonderful! We all exist!” So, I mean, I just, I love what you’re saying there. Just exposure to difference is beautiful and so critical, I think.

Megan: And how amazing that we have so many more, like, children’s books that are about that these days than, you know, we had.

Ashley: Yes, yes.

Sam: Right. We couldn’t find those in the Eighties, and they just didn’t exist. They didn’t exist. Wow.

Ashley: There’s so many cool ones out there right now, you all. I’m loving it.

Megan: Amazing. You should, if you haven’t already, I mean, drop some suggestions in in the show notes because I want to know what they are as well.

Ashley: Oh, I will! Okay, I will.

Sam: Yeah. That’s a great idea. That’s a great idea.

Ashley: I will, I’ll go downstairs and get them after this.

Sam: So, back to your book, you know, how you, you know, you really took us down the memories with you. And I was also curious if you might be able to say more about how being stuck in your eating disorder impacted your relationships with your family, with your friends. I think that sometimes folks who are struggling with an eating disorder, they really feel like they’re the only one experiencing these things. And I wonder if maybe it might be helpful for you to normalize some of the ways your eating just sort of impacted your relationships.

Megan: Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredibly lonely thing to be going through, because you’re stuck in your head in such an extreme way. And for me, you know, that eating disorder voice was ever present. That was the main, kind of relationship, or the main form of communication that I had, was between kind of me, rational me, and the eating disorder voice telling me what to do, and what to not do, and how to think of myself. And that’s so isolating, you’ve become so insular. And especially if you’re a young person, people don’t know how to be around that, and that’s not, that’s not even on them. I mean, I lost a lot of friends during that time because they didn’t understand what was going on with me, and I wasn’t myself, I was behaving in unusual and worrying ways, and at the time, we didn’t know, we didn’t have the coping mechanisms. None of them did, I couldn’t properly communicate with them. So, I think if, you know, if you’re going through that and you are feeling isolated, I hear you. It is incredibly, it’s incredibly lonely. And I will say that, you know, your friends, they don’t have to get it completely. They don’t have to really understand what you’re going through. Hopefully though, they can just be there and just continue to treat you like the person they know you are. I think that’s so, so helpful. To have people in your life who knew you before, who know that you’re still in there, and who will remind you who you are and what you love, what you care about outside of the eating disorder world. So, if you have people like that, if you can be a person like that to someone with an eating disorder, that is so valuable.

Sam: Megan, did you have a friend like that, who could still see you in there? What did they say or what did they do?

Megan: I did. Yeah, I did. And it was mainly just, you know, they still invited me over to their house even though I was being disordered in, you know, when it was meal time, and they didn’t know what to do with that, but they still wanted to, like, play games with me afterwards and talk to me about what was going on in their life. So, yeah, I did have that and you just, you need that to hold on to who you are and who you’re going to be on the other side.

Sam: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley: Megan when you were like, in the midst of that then, and so these friends were still inviting you over, but your brain was still so connected with, like, the eating disorder voice, maybe even as your closest friend— how were you able to use your voice or, like, say to those friends, like, “I still need to be here,” or were you? Does that make sense?

Megan: It does make sense. I don’t think I was. I think… there are so many ways that the eating disorder changes the way your personality comes across. For me, I think I was very, probably irritable on the outside, and quite sharp. And, you know, you don’t like it when something or someone challenges the eating disorder voice, so, for the most part, I was quite shut down. I got very quiet. I went from being super outgoing, kind of always organizing the social events and trying to be the life of the group, to just, really just completely turning in on myself. So, it took the really astute friends, or the really loyal friends, to recognize that and keep hold of me. And like I said, the others couldn’t, and I don’t blame them, because it’s incredibly difficult. But what I will say is that, you know, I came back and I made better friends. And I had friends in the in the recovery process. So, often I mention one friend who I reconnected with when I was more actively in recovery, who was the most helpful friend in terms of modeling a good relationship with food. Like, we would walk home from school together, stop off at the shop, get some snacks, and just enjoy them together after school and then, you know, do an activity or work on our homework. And she was just a real intuitive eater and she never apologized for enjoying some ice cream. Or, “I’m really hungry, it’s not dinner time yet, I’m gonna have a sandwich. Cool.” And that was so helpful

Ashley: Having that friend to model some of those principles and values that you actually hold, but were maybe a little disconnected from those, sounds really nice and helpful. I kind of actually have a question for you on that regard. I have a quote from your book that I think is, like, one of the most beautiful things I’ve heard. So, I would like to read it to you and then just kind of get your take on it, if that’s okay.

Megan: Of course!

Ashley: OK. So, “When we refuse,” you said, “When we refuse to be ashamed of our appetites, we send the message that we are whole beings with needs that deserve to be fulfilled. We let the world know loud and clear that we will not spend our lives, starving and shrinking instead of flourishing and living.”

Sam: That’s a good one! That’s a really good one.

Ashley: That’s such a good one! I have, like, chills in my whole body right now. Could you speak more to that quote? And I know you were just touching on intuitive eating, so you can say anything you want to say, nut I would just love to hear more about that.

Megan: Of course! So that’s from the “Hunger” chapter, I think. Yeah, the food, the intuitive eating chapter. I think that I realized somewhere down the line that our hunger is demonized, not only because, you know, “We’re meant to look like XYZ, we’re meant to be thin, we’re meant to lose weight,” but because we’re not meant to have needs. If you’ve been socialized as a woman in this culture, the way we’re taught to be a kind of quote unquote, “good woman,” is to be without needs, is to go along with everything, never put up a fuss, never complain. Never, you know, be inconvenient or impolite, just need nothing and kind of be nothing. So, to reclaim the fact that, “Yeah, you know what I need things. I have hunger in more than one sense, and I’m not going to apologize for it. I’m not gonna deny myself or my body, I’m gonna be in my body and claim what I need,” that’s another way of saying, “Hey, I’m a whole human and I deserve this space that I take up, and I’m not gonna make myself smaller because that’s what I’ve been taught, because that’s how I’ve been taught to be palatable, likable, beautiful, good enough.” It’s a kind of radical reclaiming that we can all do on a daily basis to claim our humanity.

Sam: Mmm.

Ashley: I’m just thinking as you’re saying that, oh my goodness, I’ve had so many clients that, like, the negative core belief is literally everything that you’ve said. “I’m not good enough, I’m unlovable, I’m not likable, just simply as who I am.” And that messaging, I mean, they have no idea where and when that started because it’s something that they have felt like has been with them forever. And when, societally, I mean, we’re told, especially as women in all different types of regards to, right, “Be more manageable, be more palatable. Don’t get angry.” Right? We can’t be angry women, it’s not acceptable. I mean, it’s, yeah. Yeah, I just loved that.

Sam: You know, it’s— so the common thought, especially in eating disorder recovery, that “I’m a burden,” that “My needs are a burden,” and the unlearning of that is really part of the work. But thank you for, I mean that was so beautifully said, Megan, I mean that it’s never just about the food and eating disorder recovery, it’s also about our needs as human beings.

Megan: Right. Absolutely. And I hear, you know, anyone who feels like a burden because they have needs. I still have to combat that thinking within myself. Actually my sister, Gemma, has been a brilliant example for me. So, Gemma has cerebral palsy, she has extra needs, she has enhanced needs, and no one kind of guilt trips her or believes her to be a burden, she just has the needs that she has and they deserve to be met. And so if I feel that way about her, why the hell don’t I feel that way about myself? Even if my needs are slightly different.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Before I worked in the eating disorder field, I spent some time really kind of, like, trauma and substance use is where I had been, and I remember teaching groups at a residential substance use facility and telling, you know, our patients, like, “Guess what, you can be needy! Like, needy is not a bad word.” But it is so, you know, drilled into us that, like, we can’t honor the different things that come up for us. So, I just have one more question kind of going on that. Like, how— when you started re-expressing your needs, how did that land with your family, your friends, your support people? And what was that like for you?

Megan: Oh, I mean, it’s an ever evolving thing. It’s something that I am consistently trying to do. I think for the most part, I definitely had an idea in my head that if I express needs, if I express limits as a human being, you know, there is a limit to how much I can give or do or produce or, you know, be awake. If I express that, then I’m going to disappoint people and they’re gonna be angry with me. But nobody in my life who actually cares about me and cares about my wellbeing has ever expressed anger when I have had a limit or have had a need. Actually, for the most part, they’ve respected that, wanted to help, and it’s that classic kind of social media saying of “The only people who don’t respect a boundary of yours are the people who were trying to take advantage of you.”

Sam: Yeah, who benefit from it. Yeah, exactly.

Megan: Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, I found that to be, to be very true. And you know what, sometimes I think people aren’t gonna get when you have needs, they’re not going to understand where you’re coming from. They’re maybe going to misunderstand your intentions. But that has to be ok. You know, you don’t have to justify your every decision to the masses, you just have to feel peaceful within yourself knowing that you’ve made the decision for your own well-being. That’s ok.

Ashley: Well and I would say, sometimes those people that don’t understand probably don’t understand because they maybe haven’t done the work themselves and don’t know how to express their own needs.

Sam: Hmm. It could be. Right, right. You said earlier, Megan, “Body positivity saved your life.” You said that in, I know you said that in your book, and you talk about body positivity a lot. How do you think it saved your life? And how do you think your recovery would be different if you never found it?

Megan: Oh, I don’t think I would have a recovery to speak of. I think… so, my eating disorder, it was, between the years of 15 to 17 were the most intense. And I would say that I was announced “recovered” long before I really was. So, I had a restrictive eating disorder, I followed the stereotypical path of, you know, I lost a lot of weight, and then my recovery was largely weight restoration. But over here, at that time, the kind of the, the medical services, their view was, “She’s weight restored. She’s fine. She’s all good, send her off on her way.” And so, I don’t think I really did the work of recovery mentally until I found body positivity, because before that I still was chasing weight loss, I was still incredibly disordered with my food intake and with how I moved my body. And it wasn’t until, you know, I stumbled across those people on social media, talking about diet culture, and not hating themselves, and not going hungry, that things really started to fall into place for me. So, I would, I hate to think about where I would be without that. I think I would have probably gone round and round the diet merry go around, maybe properly relapsed sometimes. You know, I certainly wouldn’t be where I am now, which is happier than I’ve ever been in my body and for the most part in my life, and in the biggest body I’ve ever had. And here we are.

Sam: Do you remember— I think in your book you talked about sort of the first person that sort of represented body positivity to you. Do you remember who that was? Where you were really— oh, it’s, I’m trying to remember exactly what you had said in your book. But it was someone who really made an impression. And I just thought to myself, “I wonder who that was.” And I was wondering if I could ask you because, I mean, I wonder if this person knows that sort of set in motion for you a whole body positive sort of  life.

Megan: She does, she does know. And she is luckily a friend. So, it’s Dani, Dani Adriana, who is an Australian body liberation advocate who’s been kind of talking about this long before I came along, and was, yeah, that person who’s stuck in my brain and who I couldn’t forget about, and taught me so much and is a friend. So that’s really beautiful.

Sam: How amazing is that?! Wow!

Ashley: That’s incredible!

Sam: That’s awesome, thanks for sharing that.

Ashley: And I feel like, you know, several of our listeners— I mean, again, I told you this, Megan, before we even started the show. I just, your account on social media is so beautiful to me, and we have encouraged so many of our people to connect with you on social media. Because it’s the way you speak of yourself and the way you speak of others, and of our bodies. Like it’s just, it’s so healing and it’s so beautiful. And I appreciate you putting yourself out there. I know— Sam and I have this conversation all the time because we do the podcast, and San does our TikTok— like, you know, it can be hard to put yourself out there. But I appreciate your example so much, Megan.

Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that very much, especially because, I mean, it’s been a minutes. It’s still coming up to, you know, nearly 10 years doing the kind of content creating thing. And I have lost my way a couple of times, I think we all have relationships that come in waves with social media and how we want to show up on it. So, it’s different to how it used to be, but I just, I still try to use it meaningfully. And every so often I think, “There’s no meaning in this anymore. It’s not worth it.” And then you think to yourself, “Well, just think of all the, you know, 15-year-olds who are on there spouting, horrible, hateful, right-wing nonsense. Actually, it is worth showing up, and it is worth saying.” Even the basics are still worth saying on there.

Ashley: The basics are still worth saying!

Sam: Oh, absolutely!

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: You know, we all know that, you know, you have been a content creator, but also, I imagine you’re on social media sort of, you know, as a spectator, you know, using it. And there’s all these studies about, you know, social media use and its impact on body image, and self-esteem, and anxiety. And I’m just wondering, how do you take care of yourself on social media when we don’t always have control over the things that are showing up on our feed? And do those things impact you? You know, how do you take care of yourself?

Megan: They’ve impacted me in the past for sure. I think because I have been a content creator for so long, I really understand how social media works in terms of, algorithmically, I know that what I engage with is what I’m going to see more of. So, I am tactical with that. I do resist the rabbit holes of the traumatic stuff, the stuff that I know is gonna be bad for me. I do engage with things I want to see more of and people who I want to support. And so, it shows me that content more and that puts me in a positive feed. And, you know, I have my notifications turned off. I only go on there when I want to. I take breaks from it, my filtered words are huge, the amount of words I have blocked, and phrases I have blocked. Because it’s supposed to feel good.

Sam: Right!

Megan: I think like so many of us lose sight of that. It is supposed to be fun, connect us, inspire us, empower us. And if it’s not doing that, then we should do everything in our power to change it or not be there, that is also an option.

Sam: Mhm. Mhm

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Thanks for that reminder for our listeners, that you can go into settings and actually filter out things by word, you know, by hashtag, whatever it may be. I think people forget that those tools are there. So, I love this idea of you being really tactical, like, you have a strategy going into this.

Megan: Oh, absolutely. You’ve got to.

Sam: You need it, yeah, for sure.

Ashley: So, Megan, I kind of want to ask a big, broad question. As someone— I know. You’ve been a, we just talked about, social media content creator for 10 years, but you’ve been on this journey for years, right? And in your book, you do talk a little bit about the diet industry and kind of even when that began. I’m curious, have you seen changes or shifts? Have you seen anything move in a positive direction, or any thoughts about that?

Megan: A positive direction seems generous!

Ashley: Or any direction!

Megan: I think, it’s like I said earlier, that diet culture is a shapeshifter, and just when you think you’ve got it figured out, and you’re like, “Aha, that’s the problem!” It just comes back in a slightly different form. So, when I first started calling out diet culture, it was the really obvious stuff. It was the weight loss pills—

Ashley: Right.

Megan: —And the big old diet companies. And then we saw a slight shift more to, quote unquote, “a healthy lifestyle,” and kind of more fitness things, and things like waist trainers, and things like detox teas. Not a diet pill, a detox tea. But if you actually look into it, very similar ingredients, absolute snake oil. And then, you know, beauty standards have shifted again slightly, and now we’re in an era of very, very normalized cosmetic procedures, and extreme filters, which I think, still, you know, it falls under beauty standards in general. So, it is always shifting. It’s always shifting with whatever the standard is,  and whatever is profitable. But this is why diet culture changes so often, because once we all try the thing, once realize it doesn’t work, they’re not gonna have repeat customers. So, they need to shift slightly in their sales direction. And so, it’s no longer, “This is no longer a weight loss product, it’s a healthy lifestyle product, or this is a fitness product.” And they’ve been doing that for decades. So, yeah, I have seen changes. I don’t know if they’re positive changes, but all I hope is that more and more people are awake to it and have the tools within themselves to spot the shape shifting when it happens.

Sam: Right, right, right.

Ashley: I mean, I, I agree with you. I feel like what I have seen, and maybe this is because, like, therapeutically I’ve been in, you know, this eating disorder/disordered eating field now for about six years, but I feel like people are using their voices more. I mean, I truly feel like we’re hearing from people speaking out against the status quo or the “thin ideal” if you will. And that encourages me, and there’s still so much of it, you know, everywhere.

Megan: You’re right! And actually, you know what, I’m kind of being a bit pessimistic earlier, because, you know, so many things exist now that didn’t and couldn’t, even 10 years ago. Like, Lizzo and her Big Girls, every, kind of, every campaign we see. Yeah, every campaign we see now has at least some size diversity. You know, and these aren’t kind of huge legislative wins, but we are shifting. There are definitely, yeah, things exist now that couldn’t have before. So, that’s a good thing.

Ashley: And that wasn’t a call you out or anything, that was just like, “I wonder what has changed!” But I was thinking, when I was a freshman in college, I remember that— and I’ve always existed in a larger body, Megan, always. So, I remember that Old Navy stopped carrying “plus size clothing.” Like, I’m quoting here. And I was furious because I really liked Old Navy! They were new— I’m from Nashville, Tennessee— they were new to Nashville, they’d maybe been around a couple of years, and that they put out a statement and said that “These clothes will no longer be available. You can purchase them online.” Well, I was just a mere freshman at a state school in Tennessee, and I said, “Nope, that is not ok with me.” And I totally sent them an email saying how just disrespectful that was, and how that builds upon shame. I wasn’t even, like, a counselor. I don’t even know what kind of language I used, you know, but I was just so frustrated with that. And they responded back, and it was just a generic response, like, “Thank you for your feedback. Bye!” You know? And so for years, I vowed to not shop at Old Navy. For years, I mean, I didn’t. And recently I’ve seen, like, their jean ads and they’ve had all types of bodies shapes and sizes, and it’s made me really excited. And I maybe did go there a couple of weeks ago!

Sam: I think they found your old email, Ashley, that’s what happened. Clearly, that’s what happened.

Megan: You started it.

Sam: Yes. That’s amazing, that’s advocacy. And, you know, I think also, a lot of what we’re talking about is media literacy, being able to catch messages. Advocacy, speaking out. All of this are like the tools in the recovery toolbox we don’t talk about enough.

Ashley: Yeah.

Megan: Right. And I think in that circumstance as well, being able to direct blame or anger somewhere other than yourself.

Sam: Exactly.

Megan: I think that is one of the most important tools for any kind of recovery, is knowing that it doesn’t always have to go inwards, and there are legitimate places to put our frustration, to aim our anger, to get it out of our system and where it should be.

Sam: Exactly. Wow.

Ashley: That, I mean, that advocacy part is incredible. Just another, yeah, another little tool for their toolbox. Well, Megan, I kind of feel like we’re running out of time. But before we wrap up, Sam, Megan, do you have anything else? Or maybe I can ask you this, Megan. If there was one thing that you would leave our listeners with today, what little, like, jewel of joy do you want them to take away with them?

Megan: Ooo. I would say, what would it be like if you spent even just one day not at all apologizing for how you feel, for your needs, for your limits, if you could just gift yourself one day to live that way, and see how you feel. I think so many of us believe that self-punishment, and self-denial, and being hard on ourselves, being critical of ourselves, that’s the way that we’re going to get the life that we want, and that’s the way that we’re going to be happy and feel good enough. And we don’t give ourselves a chance to try the opposite, to kind of listen to our inner child, parent ourselves the way we deserve to be parented, and be unapologetic about our needs. And I think I would encourage everyone to just try it, just try to for even just a day. Just let yourself be where you are, be who you are, have the needs that you have, and not judge yourself for it. And see how you feel on the other side, because I’m learning more and more, that is the only sustainable way to live.

Sam: Mmm.

Ashley: That is beautiful.

Sam: I love it. Megan, if our listeners want to continue learning from you, connect with you, how can they find you and find more of your work?

Megan: I am @MeganJayneCrabbe on Instagram, my book is Body Positive Power, and you, you know, the other places will come along a after you’ve found me on one of those.

Ashley: I love it.

Sam: Thank you so much, Megan.

Ashley: Yes, thank you Megan, and thank you all for listening to this episode of All Bodies. All Foods. Megan, this was just an absolutely incredible conversation, so thank you so much for joining us and being a part of this with us. If you loved this episode, you can support us by subscribing, rating, leaving a review, and sharing it with others. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at @RenfrewCenter. For free education events, trainings, webinars, resources, you can head over to our website at renfrewcenter.com. And lastly, if you have any comments or questions you’d like us to answer in future episodes, please shoot us an email at podcast@renfrewcenter.,com. Thank you so much, everyone, hope you enjoyed this episode of All Bodies. All Foods.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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