Podcast Transcript

Episode 60: The Body Image Survival kit: Tips & Tools with Dr. Charlotte Markey, PhD

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam.

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley, and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome. We would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

We’ve all been there, waking up and feeling uncomfortable in our own skin. Many of us call it having a bad body image day. When we’re feeling like this, our body image can impact our mood. It can take up so much mental space, and it can even affect our relationships with others and our choices with food. For people with eating disorders, body dissatisfaction is almost always part of the territory. And working on body image, unpacking internalized biases and stigma, and unlearning diet culture myths become a crucial aspect of treatment. But this work doesn’t have a finish line. It’s a lifelong process. It isn’t linear, and it can be really hard. That being said, wouldn’t it be nice if there were a manual or a survival guide to help us with this work? Well, Dr. Charlotte Markey, PhD, thought one should exist, too. She published the Body Image Book series, which includes the Body Image Book for Girls in 2020, the Body Image Book for Boys in 2022, and most recently her new book, Adultish: the Body Image Book for Life in 2024. We invited her on the show to talk more about it.

Dr. Markey is a body image scientist who has studied body image and eating behaviors for nearly three decades. She is passionate about understanding how to help people have a healthy relationship with their bodies and food. Dr. Markey is a psychology professor at Rutgers University and has published over 100 scholarly articles and chapters about health issues. She also recently co-edited the three volume encyclopedia of mental health in 2023. She writes regularly for news outlets such as Psychology Today, and is often interviewed for TV, news articles and podcasts

Dr. Markey shares her expertise in this episode, but also her own personal experiences of the loneliness and insecurity so many of us have felt just trying to exist in our bodies. We cover a lot of hot topics in this episode, from responding to triggering comments, setting boundaries, to using social media in ways that help rather than harm. Dr. Markey is not only warm and validating, she offers so many practical, scientifically backed tips and tools for anyone hoping to feel a little more comfortable in their skin.

Welcome back everyone, All Bodies All Foods. I’m Sam and I’m here with Ashley and our very special guest, Dr. Charlotte Markey. We’re so excited to have her on the show today. Thanks for coming.

Charlotte: Thank you, I’m excited to be here.

Sam: Charlotte, we would love to learn more about you. We both read your book. We think it’s fantastic. We can’t wait to let our audiences know that it exists because it’s like the survival guide for body image, especially for young adults, and we know there’s lots of audience members out there who would love a survival guide because I know when I was in my early twenties, there was nothing, so I would have really appreciated something like this. But when I was reading your book, one of the first, I think it is the first sentence, really stood out to me immediately. And you wrote, “There’s so much I wish I’d known as a teenager and young adult, I try to answer the questions I had back then in this book.” And I was thinking to myself, “hmm, I wonder what teenager Charlotte Markey was feeling and thinking back then,” And was this a book kind of like a gift to your younger self in some ways?

Charlotte: Yeah, I mean, I think somewhat like you said, this is a book I would have really put to good use, I like to think, as a younger person, right? This information wasn’t really discussed, or at least not in this way, and so I guess the general sentiment I had in mind in writing that was just that I felt alone with my own body image concerns, and I think that loneliness and insecurity and even sometimes shame, can just make you feel like it’s just you, right? And in truth, we know, and I know now as a much older person, as a researcher who studied these issues for almost three decades that this is actually really common. You don’t have to be alone with these issues. And there’s a lot to talk about. There’s a lot to think about. There’s so much nuance in the discussion of body image. And so that’s part of why, you know, this book grew and grew and grew and then had to be cut back. And it was, you know, it was, it was a project, because I think I just kept thinking about not just my younger self and what I wished I had known, but, you know, I think it’s not a coincidence that I’ve been parenting kids who were teenagers and who are now young adults, as I worked on the body image book for girls and the body image book for boys and now the body image book for life. Right, because I see them and I see their friends and we’ve had a household where I have kids in and out often. And then I’ve also taught college-aged kids now for 25 years. So, you know, I feel kind of in touch with what some of that, you know, suffering, it is suffering, looks like.

Sam: Especially now there’s like social media, there’s so many things that impact body image now that weren’t around when I was a young adult. And I, you know, I always worry really what social media is doing to our body image. And we’ll get to that later, I think, but yeah, there’s a lot to navigate nowadays and just so much exposure to toxic messages.

Ashley: Charlotte, I want to say I appreciate that you saying that as you navigated raising children, you wrote your body image workbook for teenagers and now for young adults. And I have a three-year-old and it’s so interesting to me, like I hear the messages that maybe I was either taught or that were left out that I had to like figure out on my own, and when you’re younger, you don’t quite figure out always the healthiest thing, you know, and so I am actively trying to like impart helpful and positive messages really with my daughter. And so, as Sam said reading your book, I found so many wonderful just like practical tools. It was so helpful and I just I’m very thankful for it. So yeah, and so jumping in I’d love to hear your definition of body image. So if we could just start there, yeah, how do you define body image?

Charlotte: I take a really broad view of body image. As you can tell, having read the book, right? But a lot of researchers or practitioners will say body image is how you think and feel about your body. And I’ve always felt like that was really a limited definition because we know body image, I think, is more than that. It’s not just a superficial concern. It’s not just about physical appearance. It really is more, how comfortable are you in your own skin? How comfortable are you with yourself? It’s a core piece of our identity. It affects how we relate to other people. It affects our behavioral health, so especially in the domains of eating and physical activity. But we also know it’s just associated with mental health more broadly, right? So body image is associated with not just eating disorders, but also anxiety, depression, even substance use disorders. So I think, you know, when we say we want to support body image, we’re not saying we want people just to think that they’re pretty. We’re saying we want them to be comfortable with who they are so that they can kind of live their best lives. That sounds a little trite, I know, but, you know, to sort of just optimize their experience without the insecurity or shame or all those things that a body dissatisfaction, a life of body dissatisfaction can kind of hold you back.

Sam: That’s, that’s so important.

Ashley: Yeah, I was going to say that, I’ll do that. What do you think some like, myths or misinformation has been that we’ve carried with us along the way about body image so far.

Charlotte: I mean, I think my generation or a lot of us who are now parents, right, sort of in the gen X zone or millennial zone, you know, grew up believing that their worth was tied to their appearance so much and didn’t know how to separate those things. And I think now we see a lot of people trying to have a positive body image and trying to embrace those messages, but somewhat confused because they feel like that means they have to feel positive all the time, like the pendulum swung. And that’s also a difficult and I think inaccurate way to really frame these issues because no one feels positive all the time about anything. So we want to help people to appreciate that. It’s not like you have to be at one end of the continuum that most of our lived experiences are someplace in the middle where we don’t want to be dissatisfied or held back, but we’re not going to be, you know, reveling in our greatness at all times either.

Ashley: Right, right.

Sam: Charlotte, is your perspective more about, would you say it’s like body neutrality or body positivity? Like how might you describe the way you see a healthy relationship, you know, when someone has a healthy relationship with their body?

Charlotte: So I love the concept of body neutrality because it does focus more on acceptance and contentment and it incorporates many elements of body image that are important, like a focus on body functionality, not just appearance. And yet I think there’s sort of an analogy when we think about body image, like think of it almost as analogous to our mood or happiness and depression, right? We don’t want people to be depressed and it’s great if they are self- accepting and content, but it’s even better if they’re happy. And so from my perspective, if you feel pretty neutral, that’s a long way on the way to body positivity. That’s most of it, right? I think really what’s just sort of missing then is that sense of joy in your body or feeling more of that positivity, and, you know, as a psychologist, I want that for everybody, not every single second of every day. But I think that, that there’s maybe a little bit more than just contentment.

Sam: Yeah, like there’s space for maybe even just having moments where you feel positive about your body and that maybe it’s, like most things, it’s not black or white, all or nothing. It’s, you know, maybe body image is more like our emotions that, you know, feelings come and go and change. And it’s really about being able to just sit with whatever experience you might be having.

Charlotte: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam: So I imagine that there are some people in our audience who are listening and they’re thinking to themselves, well, you know, this is all nice and everything, but my body image is more about my health. And I want to change my body because my doctor told me that if I lose weight, I’ll be healthier. You know, there’s lots of messages like that, as we know out there. And I’m curious, you know, what you might say to those audience members who are thinking to themselves,  “well, I know that there’s research that link health concerns with weight, and I know my doctor wants the best for me, so why can’t I focus on changing my body and making it smaller?”

Charlotte: So there’s a lot to unpack in that question. So I’m going to try to tackle all the pieces of it, but feel free to rein me in if I get off course. So the first thing is absolutely, we should trust our medical providers and believe that they have our best interest at heart, but we also know that most medical providers get really limited training when it comes to nutrition, eating disorders, or even mental health in general. If we’re getting messages from any provider that doesn’t necessarily sit right or suggest that weight loss is necessary, I think it’s important to also get another second opinion, right, to talk with another provider, because no one doctor can be an expert in everything. So look for the expert if you can find them, if you have access, if you have the means for the issues and concerns you have. So that’s one piece of it, I think, is we have to be careful where we’re getting the message. The other piece of it is that we know that there’s some research that links health and weight, but we also, I think, know, especially from research this last decade or so, that those relationships are just very complicated. And so there’s a lot going on and it’s not this simple, you know, if you lose, people used to talk about lose 10% of your body weight and that would actually lead to, it was thought, positive changes in health, and yet I think we know now it’s not that simple and it’s not necessarily the weight. A lot of times it’s just people who engage in more activity more regularly, right? So it’s the activity or the behavior may actually be leading to improvements in health, but it’s not necessarily weight dependent. So these issues are pretty complicated, and I think we have to be really careful not to oversimplify and to think that if I do A, then B is what’s going to happen because as we get more advanced research, I think we see that it’s just more complicated. And perhaps one of the issues that’s also relevant that has been really important to me and something that’s fascinated me across my career, is that even if you think that weight loss would be important to your health, we know that there is virtually nothing people do that leads to sustained weight loss, so we have to really think about what is even possible, right? So if you want to, or if your doctor really has compelling evidence that weight loss would be important to your health for whatever reason, then the next question even is, is it even possible? And I think most of the dieting literature now for several decades has suggested that most people gain back any weight they lose, and in fact, they often gain back more weight. And in the interim, they can literally damage their metabolism, develop disordered eating. There are costs to even embarking on some of these changes in behaviors. So I think I impacted most elements of that, but let me know if I left something out.

Sam: Thank you so much for answering that question. And it is very complicated. So the answer is complicated and there’s probably, we could probably have a whole episode on it as I’m sure, you know, Ashley and I have touched on so many other, in other episodes, we’ve tried to kind of tackle this topic. One of the important things I always try to remind clients and we’ve talked about it on the show is, you know, how important it is to be a critical consumer of the research because what we really never see are certain things controlled for like, you know, the fact that when folks experience weight stigma, they’re less likely to go to the doctor, they’re less likely to use preventative services. So that’s going to impact health, of course, even less likely to engage in movement, you know, experiencing weight discrimination and weight stigma, and so there are so many other factors at play that impact health that don’t really have to do with weight. They have to do with all these other factors at play.

Charlotte: Absolutely, yeah.

Ashley: So adding on to that, I would like to talk about the concepts that you explain in your book called Embodiment and talk about, I’m curious if people might be surprised to hear, if our bodies do change that body image doesn’t necessarily change. And I remember I feel like I was in my early 20s. Do you all remember Al Roker on the Today Show, maybe? He went through this huge body transformation, this huge change, and he actually wrote a book about this too, about how even though his body changed, the state of his mental health did not and that was very shocking and surprising to him, and so I’m curious, Charlotte, if you can touch on that? Again, I think you, you know, you have this concept called embodiment. But what is what does that mean for us? Because I think I think so many of us might get stuck there. Like, wait, what I thought weight loss or my changing body was supposed to fix everything?

Charlotte: Well, it’s no wonder so many people think that though, right? So much of the messaging that we experience suggests that if you lose just five pounds or you buy a certain cosmetic or, you know, you undergo some kind of cosmetic procedure or whatever it may be, right? All of these thing will not just change your appearance, but you will be happier, you will be more popular, you will get a new job, you will, right? I mean, the messaging and advertisement for all of this is just really extensive because so much money is to be made off of stoking all of our insecurity and leading us all to feel like we are projects, we need to fix ourselves. This is a never ending project, and the data doesn’t back it up that changing ourselves necessarily does improve our mental health or improve our body image. In some cases, it may, of course, but I think, you know, lasting improvements in mental health usually come from really internal work, not external work, so to speak.

Ashley: And so could you tell us more about this concept of embodiment that you write about in your book?

Charlotte: Yeah! So embodiment is probably more overlapping with my broader view of body image than many people’s. And it’s sometimes defined as comfortably living in your body, experiencing your body to its fullest. It’s a sense of comfort, but also empowerment in your body, so feeling a inaduble. It’s not just that you’re like a passive recipient of messaging or experiences, but that you feel like your body is a source of power in this world essentially. So it’s a really cool and really very broad body image concept as well.

Sam: I have a question because I’m thinking about so many of the clients I’ve worked with in eating disorder treatment and body image work is almost always a part of it. And one of the things we run into invariably is the fact that so many of us have friends or family members, like we’re working on our body image, but sometimes the people around us have a really hard time just not commenting or not talking about their own bodies, the bodies of others, you know, just really any kind of like, there can be like body shaming and things like that. I love your book because it has so much practical advice. Would you be able to share a little bit about what we can do in the moment if we have relationships and this happens or what do we do with these relationships in general?

Charlotte: This can be so tricky, right? Because we don’t want to confront our friends or family members typically and tell them what we’re really thinking in these moments because we don’t want to damage the relationship, right? And the flip side of that is that there’s actually research to suggest that what we sometimes in this area of literature refer to as” fat talk,” right, like talking in a disparaging way about our bodies with other people, and this is engaged in more often by girls and women than boys and men. But that females tend to view it as like a way to bond almost with one another. And yet it doesn’t have a positive impact on body image, right? So all that, “no, you’re not, yes, I am. No, you’re beautiful.” It doesn’t actually make anyone feel better, right? We’re socialized to think that this is like female behavior, female conversation, and yet the literature does not bear out that it’s helpful to us. And so I think because we feel like or we maybe are in the habit of talking about these things or hearing about these things in conversation in a certain way, it can feel very strange to think like, “actually, I don’t want to do this anymore, right? And how do I let people know I don’t want to do this anymore?” And sometimes it can be helpful just to warn people in advance, right? To send people a text and say, I’ve been having a hard time or this is what I’ve been working on. Can we try to avoid discussion of A, B, and C, however you articulate that. And also sometimes it can be good to, you know, change the subject, right? You don’t have to confront it in the moment if you’re if that’s not your style, just change the subject. It always makes me think of my grandmother when she was still alive, if she just didn’t want to talk about something, she would just very dramatically be like, isn’t this lovely weather we’re having? We all knew what was going on.

Ashley: Change the subject.

Charlotte: Whenever I offer that advice, I can’t help but think of her.

Sam: Very wise.

Charlotte: It could be pouring and she’d be like, look at how great this weather is. You know, or I think more power to you if you are at a place where you can say, “listen, I’m sure you don’t mean anything by this, but talking about what you’re eating or your diet or your clothes or my body or your body or whatever’s come up is just kind of difficult for me. Do you mind if we change the subject?” So in some ways it perhaps is most adaptive just to be able to say that, but I even have a hard time doing that and this is what I do for a living, so I don’t fault anyone else if you just can’t do it. But like I said, more power to you if you are comfortable enough or the moment strikes you and you can just say it.

Sam: Thanks for validating that. It is hard. I mean, it’s really hard to set boundaries with the people you care about, and, you know, I’ve worked with some clients where also I think the question comes up like, is this a relationship that is worth continuing? I’m just wondering your thoughts on that, especially if you have maybe a friend who just can’t seem to stop talking about their bodies or your body or they’re not respecting the boundaries that you put in place?

Charlotte: I guess my thought is more from years of living than any specific research evidence, but I do think that friends and people in our lives sometimes have different places at different times. And so if you’re either recovering from an eating disorder or really trying to work on these issues and you, you know, have someone in your life that’s just not helping, right, eliminate that relationship necessarily, but maybe you need space, right? And, and you may feel like you want to articulate that or you may not, you know, my personal style would probably be just to, you know, try to not spend as much time with that person for a little bit until I was in a better place, but I guess in my experience, sometimes then it’s like, you know, the next year, or a couple years later, you know, you may both find yourself with either a shared interest or, you know, your kids are both now going to the same high school or in the same activity and you want to be able to connect with and enjoy that person in a different context at a different time. And so, you know, as long as that person’s not being malicious, isn’t trying to purposely be damaging, you know, I think oftentimes, just so many people struggle with these issues, and so in many cases, it’s not about you, it’s about them. And yes, we have to have boundaries and protect ourselves, but that person may need you later or you may need them later, or want them, want that relationship. I feel like be careful maybe how confrontational to be to sometimes. It may be generous just to step away a little bit and then hope you can step back later.

Sam: I know it always helps me when, you know, if someone in my life is talking about their body in a negative way or making negative comments about the body of a celebrity or something like that, it always helps me just to have compassion for them. It’s like, wow, like this is a peek into what goes on in their head and how they’re probably feeling about themselves, like feeling shame or feeling, you know, I mean, body image can be like all consuming. I mean

Charlotte: Absolutely.

Sam: Yeah. And, and sometimes it just helps when I think to myself, wow, like they must really be suffering with a lot of thoughts like this. And that’s hard.

Charlotte: Right. So like I said, it’s more about them probably than you sometimes.

Sam: Exactly.

Charlotte: And you know, if you really are convinced of that too, that may be a window to try to say, “are you okay?” You know, like is there some support I could maybe help you get? Or this is what I’ve been doing that’s been helping me? Like are you, you know, is there something that you need right now?

Sam: Hmm. I love that.

Ashley: I always tell my clients when we’re kind of in this space to just embrace the awkward. You know, and if they and I think, you know, Charlotte, you mentioned your personal style, and I think mine would be if I had something to say or if I really wanted to would just be to come out with like, “okay, I’m going to be awkward. I’m just going to say it right now,” you know, like and just kind of put that on the forefront, but I do think with this topic relationships are so complex and even talking about boundaries. I mean, that’s it’s such a nuanced thing and there’s really not a black or white way to approach it I feel like.

Charlotte: Yeah. I’ve just definitely seen people sometimes I think get advice about boundaries and interpret that in a very black or white way and think like I just have to cut this out of my life and in some cases of course that may be what’s best, but I guess I get a little bit worried too about people just sort of starting to cut everything out because that becomes maladaptive also.

Ashley: Right. Right. OK, so relationships. Let’s move to social media. Circling back, Sam, to that topic. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so much to talk about. I know. So Charlotte, we’re just curious from your perspective, what is social media doing to our body image? Are there ways we can protect ourselves without deleting all of our apps? You know, I do also like I feel like we hear sometimes like social media is so bad. And I do want to say that we I have some really fun connections on social media too, you know, so there’s a give and take. But yeah, we’d love to hear your perspective.

Charlotte: So here’s another place where there is a lot of nuance, right? That there is a growing body of research looking at social media and body image and social media and mental health more generally. And I think that sort of as a group of studies right now we have hundreds of studies at this point, we can say that social media presents a risk factor. It’s a risk for body image and mental health more broadly. Some of my own work suggests that it really does depend how are you using social media, right? So I’m guessing that you guys, if you’re on social media, your news feeds look like mine. And it’s like we have, you know, I have like middle-aged mom memes and body positive stuff and mental health advocates and, you know, I mean stuff that’s like generally pretty positive, unless people are like complaining about their kids or their jobs or whatever, but you know, like in good fun. And so not that there isn’t some, you know, some potential damage to be done just even by spending a lot of time engaged with social media, because it can be such a time sack, but I think we have to be careful not to think of it in terms of like throwing the baby out with the bath water, because I’ve also connected with many, many people in our fields via social media. And there’s even a few people that it feels a little strange to say, but like we’ve never met in person, but we message each other, we’ve zoomed, we’ve talked on the phone, we’ve emailed. That we’ve helped each other out as professionals, but really as friends at this point. And so I do think that depending on how you use it, and we know these are algorithm driven forms of media, so we do get some control over how it’s used. And of course, where this gets really complicated is in thinking about young people and what our responsibility as adults in the lives of young people is, and that’s why I talk about this a lot in all of the books, frankly, that I’ve written, because we want to think about it in terms of preparing, I think, young people to be media literate consumers of social media, because even if we’re able to, let’s say, keep our kids off of social media or away from phones until they’re 13, 14, 15, God bless you if you make it to 16, you know, even if we can delay some of the inevitable, once then they’re exposed, we need them to know how to parse what they’re seeing, how to make good choices, and how to know what looks real and what is not. And so I think we have to think about some avoidance for young people, some critical use, you know, education, engagement, but just, you know, completely making it off limits is probably never going to happen.

Sam: Right. We have to think about what’s realistic here, and I don’t think social media is going anywhere anytime soon. And when it’s used for a connection, it can be really beneficial, you know, but if you’re using it to compare yourself or self-objectify and all of that can really be harmful. When I’m working with clients in eating disorder recovery, social media is always part of the conversation. And there’s research I’m familiar with about cutting back on social media or even taking a one week break that can have really positive benefits on mental health and wellness, and I often share those studies with clients. And I’m like, “hey, like, look at this. I wonder what even just taking a day break might be or cutting back.” And it’s so interesting because one of the things I hear so often, the number one reason why people don’t want to take a break is FOMO, fear of missing out. You talk about this in your book. I was hoping you could share a little bit about FOMO and how can we manage FOMO when it comes to social media?

Charlotte: So it’s true, there’s more than one study now looking at social media breaks of about a week, and they do suggest that a week or so away is good for these participants, or was good for these participants’ mental health and body image. In my lab, we actually just did a study over the summer that we haven’t been able to publish yet, looking at a three week break, so I’m hoping that that’s an extension of that work. But there is this study also looking at FOMO in particular that shows that people who take these breaks maybe at first feel some of that, but ultimately do not.

Sam: It goes away?

Charlotte: It does sort of seem to dissipate a bit because I think in so many ways, the checking and the looking, it becomes kind of a compulsion for a lot of people. I mean, I’ve even experienced this myself, right? Like if I have a slower day, like I start checking more and playing around my phone, right? If I’m really busy and I don’t look for a whole day, I don’t even think about it then, right? And so I think what is surprising in some of these research findings is that even though people are resistant initially because they are afraid of missing out or not connecting with other people that they care about, that a lot of times they don’t really end up missing it nearly that much and there are other ways to connect, right? So if it’s truly going to be better for your mental health to not be on social media or to be on it a lot less, you know, this is what like chat groups are for, right?

Ashley: Yeah. I’m actually encouraged to hear that. So not being on it for a week, you are seeing or research is showing that then folks are not experiencing as much FOMO, I guess.

Charlotte: Yeah!

Ashley: That’s so great!

Sam: That’s really good to know. I’m going to share that also.

Ashley: I need to take that into my brain.

Sam: Because maybe, maybe at first it’s like uncomfortable. You can just remind yourself like just need to hang in there because hopefully it’ll go away a little bit.

Charlotte:  Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: I do often when I get in that moment, I think about, which I know honestly children these days don’t have this ability to do this, but I think about a time growing up when I was in like middle and high school when, I literally thought about this driving my daughter to school today where if I skipped school or didn’t go to school for a day, maybe I didn’t feel well, I was so excited to go back the next day to like engage in that connection with them and I and I did miss them my friends, you know, but it was like it was this eagerness and excitement to reconnect and I think I was thinking about that this morning. Like there’s so many ways now for, because of social media because of the phones and apps and all that jazz, for us to stay connected, and so I bet that break does do something really positive for us and that, I mean, that’s just, it’s great to hear that we don’t focus on the FOMO or the missing out as much if we take that break. I think that’s wonderful.

Charlotte: Yeah, yeah. And I think too, you know, we don’t have to look at it as you’re on or you’re off always, right? And I also have talked with many people in eating disorder recovery or who’ve experienced other mental health problems, and we talk about, you know, what if you just take like a short break, you know, like a week or like a month, right? Like just take, just start checking less, right? And sometimes that can be helpful too. It doesn’t have to be like, I’m never going to engage with this again.

Ashley: Yeah, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

Charlotte: Right, right. Or certain apps, people like more than others, right? So sometimes people, even my students will sometimes say like, I’m not on TikTok. I just started taking up too much time. Right? Like Instagram, I can check faster and I’ll just do that instead. Or, you know, so it is really interesting when young adults will sort of set their own boundaries sometimes and tell me about it. Like, I’m just happier if I’m not doing that or it detracts from studying or whatever. So.

Ashley: Yeah. Okay. So I have another question, Charlotte. Body image and clothing. This happens to be one of my favorite subjects because I love clothing, I love fashion, I think it’s so much fun figuring out how to dress my body, and so I am just curious of your thoughts on this. How does clothing impact your body image and how can clothing help or hinder our relationship with our bodies?

Charlotte: So there are some really kind of classic research on this subject that suggests when we are less comfortable in what we’re wearing, that that’s truly distracting from our ability to engage with the world. And so I think one of the things that I like to remind people is that clothes are meant to keep us warm, cover us in ways that we deem socially acceptable, and be comfortable. And I like clothes too, so I think it’s fine to like them and to enjoy them and to try to be fashionable, but, you know, also to try to pick clothes that do their job, right? And that means protecting us, keeping us warm, covering what we want to cover, and not distracting us. And I think I use the example of shoes in the book, right? That there are so many shoes that do a terrible job of being shoes because you can hardly walk in them. And then you can’t walk in your shoes, right? And I think so many women have had this experience, I know I have, where you have really cute shoes, but they have a high heel or there’s something uncomfortable about them and you wear them for something special. And then, like, you just spend so much of the time at this event thinking about how much your feet hurt.

Sam: Yeah. Just regretting what you’ve done. Why did I do this to myself?

Charlotte:  Yes. So this isn’t to say that we should never have cute shoes, but, right, like how do we kind of maybe, you know, balance feeling like we’re presenting ourselves in an attractive way, but also, you know, like able to walk at the event we’re going to, right?

Ashley:  So it’s okay for us to have quote unquote, let the clothes just do their job kind of days? Does that make sense?

Charlotte: Totally. And some of the terminology I love in thinking about this is, you know, are we making adaptive or maladaptive appearance investments, right? And so, you know, and that’s not a strict dichotomy and it’s not the same for everyone,  but right, like if you’re investing a little bit of time in what you’re going to wear because you’re going to something special, great. That’s probably perfectly adaptive. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you’re spending so much time and you’re wearing shoes you can’t walk in and you’re uncomfortable and you can’t concentrate at your job because of, you know, whatever you squeezed yourself into, then that’s probably a maladaptive investment in your appearance, because it’s actually distracting from your quality of life.

Ashley: And it probably increases anxiety.

Sam: Because you’re stressed.

Ashley: Yeah, you’re stressed. You’re spending so much time, you know, taking everything out of the closet.

Sam: I work with a lot of alums in recovery who are doing well, and they’ll come on the podcast and tell their story or they’ll come to a group and tell their story for folks to hear. And so many of them, I want to say almost all, say that when they realized comfortable, well-fitting clothes, actually, you know, they really felt like it was a game changer once they discovered that. It was like, oh, you mean when I feel physically good in my clothes and they fit and they do their job, as you say, it was like one of the biggest shifts in their body image. So it’s such an important reminder for anyone who’s struggling. You don’t have to have an eating disorder, obviously, to struggle with body image. So, but yeah, to prioritize your comfort.

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s awesome. One of my favorite things is sizing up and because it does increase the comfort and in my brain, maybe years ago, I was taught, again, like I had to be a certain size or whatever, and this now gives me freedom to just exist and to just be. And I don’t worry about it. I don’t tug at my clothes all day long, and I’m not distracted. And so anyway, I love that tip and that tool.

Charlotte: Yeah. And also, I mean, clothes and fashion have evolved in some really cool ways. The pandemic kind of pushed this along, right? Where there’s so many, I think really cute clothes that are like elastic waist and stretchy and you can wear sweatpants almost anywhere now. There are cute sweatpants. I mean, I think that, I mean, I’m just like love this part of fashion these days where it’s kind of like ath-leisurey, comfort is allowed more and more.

Sam: Yeah, I love it. One last question, Charlotte, before we wrap up, I know we’re running out of time. Exercise, movement, and body image. What’s the connection? What do you think our audience should know?

Charlotte: So exercise can be so good for both our mental and physical health, and it can be a really good way to think about our bodies in terms of their functionality and not just their appearance. Of course, where we have to be careful is in sort of how we frame our approach to exercise, in that it shouldn’t be punishment, it shouldn’t be obligatory, it should be hopefully movement we enjoy. In order to sustain some sort of exercise, which is like I said, if you’re physically capable, good for your mental and physical health, it’s best to engage in something that you like. We know that people who start regimens, you know, especially at the beginning of a new year or something, right? This is everyone like gets their gym membership and then two weeks later, no one’s going anymore because guess what? They don’t like going to the gym tt turns out.

Sam: Yeah. It’s like, this is horrible. I don’t want to keep doing this.

Charlotte: I don’t actually want to go to the gym, right? But do you like going on a walk with a friend? Do you like going to a dance class with a friend or a partner? Right. I mean, there are so many ways that we can move our bodies and feel joy in them. It can be an important part of appreciating our bodies and developing a positive body image.

Ashley: Charlotte, thank you so much. I feel like we could talk for another hour.

Charlotte: I know. I know.

Sam: So much to share.

Ashley: We really appreciate you coming on the show. And to our listeners, thank you again for joining us for another episode. And we will talk next time.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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