Podcast Transcript

Episode 41: Food, Feelings & Freedom: Unpacking Binge Eating Disorder with Renfrew Alum, Susie Denby

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam.

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome. We would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Ashley: Welcome back to All Bodies. All Foods. We’re thrilled to let you know that we are going to spend the entire episode today talking about binge eating disorder. Did you know that an estimated 9% of the US population or 28.8 million Americans will have an eating disorder in their lifetime? Did you know that binge eating disorder is 3 to 5 times more common than anorexia nervosa? There are many folks with binge eating disorder that may not even realize they’re experiencing this. People often mistake this for having a lack of willpower or may even think that this is their fault. The reality is binge eating disorder is a complex mental health disorder and people deserve treatment for this. I would like for you to know that there are people available to support you. And secondly, I’m thrilled to share with you all today that we have a special guest and alum from Renfrew, Ms. Susie Denby, who we are lucky enough to hear from and learn a little bit about her journey and recovery from binge eating disorder. As a reminder, you are not alone. Susie is grateful to be an alumna of The Renfrew Center of Baltimore. She’s a former teacher turned proposal writer and content developer who hopes to use her experiences to change people’s understanding of eating disorders and those affected. Since her diagnosis and treatment in 2018, Susie has stayed connected with the Renfrew community which has given her the opportunity to connect with outlets such as Good Morning America and Oprah Daily to speak on her recovery and be an advocate for others who may be struggling. Susie, thank you so much for joining us today. We just wanted to say before we get started, we’re just very thrilled to have you here to be able to share your voice and your story. So many times, Sam and I have gotten asked through the years, is recovery really possible? Can recovery really happen and you’re living proof of like both moving through this journey and actively practicing recovery. And so, we’re just, we’re really excited to hear your story. So, one, thank you for being here.

Susie: Thank you for having me.

Ashley: Yeah! And two, we were curious if you can paint us a picture of what your life was like prior to the diagnosis? How did the diagnosis even come about and what led up to this moment in 2018?

Susie: I think all through my life, I, didn’t have the greatest relationship with food and eating in general and I think that’s pretty common. Unfortunately, it’s a common experience to grow up in diet culture and, and knowing in the back of your mind that you should be making yourself smaller. I was not immune to that. I definitely started dieting from a very young age, had been labeled as overweight or obese from a very young age. And so that always was kind of in the back of my mind and I struggled with kind of the cycle of dieting that so many of us struggle with, restricting, losing a bunch of weight, that not being sustainable, gaining a bunch of weight, constantly ending up heavier than where I started. Just I think a story that is very familiar to a lot of people across the country and it wasn’t until I was an adult that it started becoming a major issue for me. One that was more recognizable. When I graduated from college and I started teaching, that was a really stressful environment. Also, at the same time as graduating, lost someone very close to me to cancer and so that grief, I think, also propelled my eating disorder in a lot of ways. And I was really using eating as a, as a coping mechanism for grief and then compounded by the fact that I was in this new, very stressful job as a teacher. I got to the point where I was restricting all day, knowing that I would binge in the evenings. So, I got into this very vicious binge restrict cycle, where I was, you know, not eating for hours and hours all day. And then after I would leave school, I would binge on my way home from school. I kind of like this decompression of the stress of the day. I knew that it was getting out of hand and I kind of had it back in my head like, this isn’t a normal thing to be doing. And it wasn’t until, a few times that I ate so much that I felt the need to physically throw up. I was like, okay, like this might actually be a medical issue. Um because, you know, I think people just don’t really talk about binging as a symptom of eating disorder but throwing up, people do talk more openly about bulimia and that being a symptom of eating disorder. So that is what really kind of clicked in my brain was like, okay, this is disordered, this is a problem. I should talk to somebody about this. And so, you know, as a teacher having the summers off, I kind of decided like, okay, in the spring, I’m going to have this evaluation. I just kind of was googling like support for eating issues and I found Renfrew and I went in the late spring of 2018 for an evaluation and I don’t really know what I expected to be honest. I went in for this evaluation and I think I was really, I, I got the diagnosis of binge eating disorder. I was surprised and not surprised, like I was very torn, with a part of me had gone into this evaluation thinking like something is obviously wrong with me and hoping that they would recommend residential treatment because in my mind, I’m like, well, if I can just go to residential, then I can just recover a lot faster and get, you know, get through it. And a part of me was thinking like, they’re just going to tell you have no self-control and you can go home. So, it was like a very, like this very weird dichotomy of thoughts in my head. And as it turned out, I was recommended for day program. So, that was the recommendation and again, surprised, and not surprised that that was the level of care that I was recommended. And so, I started day program. I spent the summer, about, I guess seven weeks of the summer, going to day treatment and I don’t know, people who listen probably are maybe familiar with treatment, but in case you’re not, the day program is about five hours a day, five days a week of, of group therapy, individual therapy, nutrition counseling, all of that stuff. So, I stepped down to IOP, which was three hours a day, three days a week. And then from there just kind of stepped down to the aftercare group. And then I was a member of the outpatient group at Renfrew Baltimore for a long time just as an extra level of support. It’s been a journey for sure. I had another major loss um in my life and went back to treatment, back to IOP as kind of a like just to kind of strengthen my recovery. I was slipping really hard after that second loss and went back in 2020 and graduated from treatment the night before the pandemic shut down the state.

Ashley: Oh my.

Sam: Oh wow.

Susie: So, I would say like the outpatient group really, really like saved my recovery during the pandemic for sure. I would highly recommend to anyone like looking for a place to start to like to find an outpatient group that just, it’s just such a support system. At a time when kind of all the support systems shut down, like we had no structure, we had no idea what was going on. I was still teaching at that point. So, it was kind of like we’re closing for two weeks and then it’s like all TBD, nobody knows what’s going to happen. And that was all the same day that I finished with IOP the second time. So, that was quite a ride for sure.

Ashley: Thank you for sharing all that. I wanted to say like initially, I’m struck by a couple things. So one you mentioned, I think that like there’s not a lot of education or talk in general about binge eating disorder. And then the second thing that you mentioned was that at one point you believed it was a lack of willpower on your part, right?

Susie: Yeah.  

Ashley: I would imagine that those two themes resonate so much with the folks that have come that have been diagnosed with eating disorders or anybody that might be listening, like this is actually a mental health disorder and there is actually treatment and support available. And so, I want us to dive into more, but I’m happy that you mentioned that because I want to say that like, I know you’re not the only person that feels that way. If there is something for anybody out there that’s like, like this feels weird. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be consuming all this or like, why do I always feel guilty after I eat or am I eating in secrecy? Like you mentioned binging in your car after work, you know, to kind of relieve, decompress from this stressful workday. Thank you for sharing that and, and I feel like that probably resonates a lot further than you might realize with some of our listeners.

Susie: I’m happy to share my story if it can kind of impact someone to kind of stop and think like, okay, maybe there’s not something wrong with me, like maybe this is something that other people struggle with and that I can overcome.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Thank you also, Susie for bringing awareness to so many issues that I feel like we don’t talk about enough. Like the fact that restricting is one of the things that fuels binge eating disorder. And I was wondering if you could say a little more about that because I think it’s very confusing to people to think that like, well, what does restricting have to do with me.

Susie: Sure. Yeah, I think 100% restricting for me is a huge part of my eating disorder and it really is a catalyst for the bingeing. For me, there are times when I have restricted, kind of unintentionally skipped a meal. I think it’s almost kind of like a dam breaking when you’ve been restricting and restricting and restricting and then you just can’t anymore and it just becomes like an uncontrollable urge to eat. I think that’s a big part of it. I mean, I know that’s a big part of it for me personally on my journey was learning that nourishing my body is a part of this recovery process and, and I think for so long, we’re taught to kind of control what our bodies look like, we need to control what we’re eating and that leads to a lot of restricting as well. So, it’s just kind of one of those things where giving myself permission to eat all food groups and eat really anything that I’m craving has really been a game changer for my recovery and for just being more mindful of how different foods impact my body and how I’m feeling.

Sam: Was that hard to, you know, when you were introduced to this idea of, guess what, like you can eat any foods and we want you to nourish your body consistently. Do you remember what it was like to hear that guidance?

Susie: I think because, and this might be a symptom of my disorder but because I am a very black and white thinker, it was really difficult for me to not have an upper limit of what I was supposed to be eating in. So, it was kind of like, okay, here’s your meal plan. The meal plan is your minimum amount that you’re going to eat each day. I’m like, okay, what’s the maximum amount? Well, there is no maximum amount, like, just listen to your body. I don’t, but I need rules. Like, I don’t know, I don’t know if this is. And so I think it is a major shift in thinking, to think that like you and, and it comes with time, right, it’s so challenging to know like, okay, I’m going to eat and one of my challenges is variety. Like I have a tendency to eat a lot of carbs, especially if I’m like, feeling very hungry and kind of lack like protein. And so, it takes a really long time to get in tune with like, okay, I’m eating these carbs, how does my body feel after I’m eating these carbs? How long is that sustaining my fullness? And just getting in tune with like, ok, like maybe I need to pair this with something else so that I’m fuller longer just like, really starting to understand what’s best for my body and how it functions. But, yeah, it was a major shift in thinking that took me literal years to get to. And I think it’s hard to, when you’re still living in diet culture and being told, you know, that you should be counting calories or, operating on a calorie deficit, which obviously requires you to count calories to know like how many calories you’re ingesting rather than just letting your body guide you into like what you need to eat. And I still to this day have to remind myself like this is science. I work with a registered dietician who is guiding me to intuitive eating and the diet culture is the misleading part. It’s not recovery that’s misleading because I think I do get in my head about like, especially as a plus size woman, like, am I just lying to myself to make myself feel better about how my body is. And it’s a thinking trap, right of like, I’m just um justifying my behaviors rather than no, I’m being intuitive with what my body is needing.

Ashley: Susie, I want to say, okay, I understand where you’re saying it’s a thinking trap but like that is so the messaging of diet culture that we’ve grown up with. Like you mentioned that at the very beginning. Like growing up in diet culture, it tells us that we are supposed to look a certain way, that we do have more worth if we look, you know, if we fit into that thin ideal, that particular body type. And so, to have those thoughts that like, am I just not doing enough? Am I like not good enough here? I think that those are normal and natural in the face of this diet culture. And I, oh my goodness, I’m just, I’m like, this is our listeners are going to soak this up so much, you know, because there are so many people that are feeling the exact way that you’re expressing right now.

Susie: And I think one of the harder things about recovery and about maintaining that mindset of, you know, all foods is that so much of the world is not made for plus size people that it feels like it’s much easier to change yourself than it is to change all these things about the world. And so, you know, it’s just really difficult to kind of stay the course and, and not focus on weight loss as an intentional goal. There’s a lot of things that I can’t partake in because it’s just not made for my body. And so, learning to be okay with that and learning to recognize it as not my problem, like not my fault, when so many people in the world are telling me it is my fault. That is something that’s really challenging as well.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Mhm. Of course. I mean, these are the macro issues that fuel eating disorders across the board is weight stigma and weight discrimination. And we try to bring as much awareness as we can about those issues on this podcast because advocacy is really part of recovery. You know, these issues, drive eating disorders. Susie, could we talk a little bit about day treatment? I’m so curious what was really helpful for you when you were programming there. We talked about, you know, the guidance from your dietitian, that was a game changer. What else was helpful? The groups therapy, the community, what, were the turning points for you?

Susie: Yeah, I mean, I think group, like the community of a group is really helpful because, you know, we talked about restricting being a part of binge eating disorder. it kind of just leads me to and, and being in groups has led me to like it’s all kind of part of the same root issue. And it’s manifesting itself in different ways. So, you know, even the women that I was in a group with, who struggle with other eating disorders, who struggle with other symptoms, the root of it was kind of the same. And so it, it does, it makes you feel a sense of camaraderie, but also a sense of just like validation that like, okay, these are things that other people are experiencing as well and, you know, I may eat food to kind of feel like I can tolerate some of these emotions that I’m having, whereas someone else might restrict food, but it’s for the same reason, like emotional management and like tolerating those emotions. So I would say like, building that community was really helpful. Also like just skill building was really helpful, like learning the, the graph of an emotion. We talked about that a lot in day treatment of how any motion will reach its peak and then come down. And by not allowing that to happen by disrupting that process, you’re getting stuck in a cycle of just hitting the peak over and over again. I think that visual for me was really helpful um to think about, okay, like I’m using food to cope with this emotion right now but if I do that, I’m just going to have to continue to do that because it’s never going to come back down the other side. I think that whole philosophy was really helpful to me in day treatment. And I think just like the vulnerability, like it was definitely a skill that I had to learn in group. And I really think that I’m a much better person for having been vulnerable and open in the groups that I’ve been in because it’s a really safe space to practice that vulnerability.

Sam: Thank you so much for bringing awareness to the fact that eating disorders are emotional disorders. That’s another thing, I think it’s hard for people to wrap their head around. It’s like what emotions have to do with this. I just need to like, learn how to eat, but you bring you, you have brought up so many important points about eating disorder recovery. The fact that loss and change in transition can trigger on not only an eating disorder but a relapse and that the work at the root of it is emotional.

Susie: Yeah.

Sam: And learning how to sit with an emotion, like letting it rise and fall without doing anything at all. Like, do you remember in treatment the first time you allowed yourself to sit with a feeling?

Susie: I remember a memorable time that that happened.

Sam: Yeah.

Susie: As opposed to the first time but part of the day treatment program is a mindfulness group first thing in the mornings and on Fridays, they would introduce some kind of like stimuli, like a video or a song.

Sam: To like evoke an emotion.

Susie: And, and it wasn’t even necessarily to invoke any emotion, but it was more practicing with staying present with the stimulus while letting your emotions and your thoughts kind of fall in the background and being physically present. And the song that was chosen for the week was Amazing Grace which had a major emotional connotation for me with the loss that I experienced of my godmother to cancer in 2015. And her niece actually sang Amazing Grace at her funeral. And so, everyone is practicing mindfulness and being present and I am fully sobbing in the group room and just learning to be okay with one, feeling that emotion, feeling that in front of other people and being vulnerable with other people and then also staying present, recognizing what was happening and not necessarily having to explain it in that moment, like not apologizing for the emotion that I was feeling. I think that was a big turning point for me where it was not the purpose of that group at all, the purpose was to kind of not get lost in your thoughts, but it just hit me so hard that I didn’t have a choice in that moment. And I think that was a turning point in my treatment as far as like not apologizing for having those emotions, you know, not saying sorry, I’m hyperventilating, sobbing over here while you guys are trying to do this mindfulness group, but just saying like this is impacting me and I’m going to sit with it and, and tolerate it and then move forward.

Sam: That is so powerful. I mean, do you remember when you left that group after you were able to do that, to openly feel. Do you remember what was going through your mind?

Susie: I remember feeling exhausted, feeling like physically exhausted. But also, I had a sense of clarity that I think I didn’t have before treatment. I think being able to identify that emotion and name it was something that was still really new for me. And I think that sense of clarity of, you know, this is what I’m feeling, this is why I’m feeling it was really helpful as well.

Ashley: I’m curious how that has like translated for you outside of the treatment walls now. So, like learning how to have your emotions, learning how to sit, how to tolerate the distress in life. Like you have family, you have friends, you have work, you know, and I can’t imagine that you’re not getting hit with stuff constantly, you know, emotional triggers if you will. What is that like out in the real world now?

Susie: Yeah. I mean, I think it took a long time for it to become kind of a natural process for me. And I think recognizing that I need processing time has been a big component of it. Recognizing that I need to kind of sit with any emotion for a little bit before I can talk about it or express it. It still takes me a little bit of time to kind of name what’s happening. And I think that is common for a lot of people where you know, they’re feeling bad. That was kind of always my go to is like, I just don’t feel good like, and it was hard for me to name what was really happening. And so, I think just giving myself that processing time is really important. And kind of thinking through, like what was happening when this came about like, what internal fear is this triggering for me? Because I think most of the time when you are experiencing a strong emotion, at least for me it is because it’s triggering something else um inside of me. So just kind of thinking about the root and like, what internal fear or core belief is this triggering for me right now? Like, why am I feeling this so strongly? That’s been really important.

Ashley: What has that given you to pay attention to what you’re experiencing emotionally? What has that done for the binge eating disorder? Does that make sense?

Susie: Yeah, I think so. I think what you’re asking is like, how has that emotional clarity kind of impacted symptoms or urges with binge eating?

Ashley: That’s a great way to rephrase them.

Susie: Something that I’ve discussed with my therapist before is that like, the, the binge eating behaviors you can’t unlearn them. Like, you can’t unlearn that your eating disorder behaviors help you cope with any emotion, you just have to keep learning other things that help you cope as well. There have been times where something hits me really hard and I’m like I, I ate through that emotion, you know, and I, and I recognized it later of like, okay, like I use eating as a coping mechanism and just kind of giving myself the grace to say like, okay, but that’s still in my emotional toolbox, like I can’t unlearn that, that is soothing to me or that, that helps me to tolerate that emotion. I can only think of other ways to tolerate that emotion. And so just recognizing that like a slip doesn’t have to turn into a relapse or like a full slide. It can just be a slip and you can recognize it in the moment and, and also recognize the urge to do it in the moment and kind of like I’ll give myself permission to be like, I’m feeling a very strong emotion. I would like to eat around this emotion, I’m going to see if I still feel that way in 10 minutes. And if I do, nine times out of ten, I don’t still feel that way in 10 minutes because I’ve kind of come down from that, that that curve of the emotion. I’ve sat with it for 10 minutes and I don’t feel it as intensively as I did 10 minutes ago. I think it’s just important to recognize that those pathways that you’ve made in your brain of like I do this behavior and I feel better. You can’t undo them. That’s a really difficult part of recovery is like, you can’t unlearn that behavior soothes that emotion, but you can only just keep adding ways to tolerate that.

Ashley: Mm Right. You can add and you can hopefully do some of those more helpful tools over and over and over again and hopefully they become ingrained. But again, you’re going back to what you mentioned in the beginning, like we’re battling all of the stuff that we’ve been taught since birth basically. And a lot of normalized behaviors fall within that diet culture and behavior use around food category. That’s what we’ve carried with us for so long.

Susie: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Sam: And we’re also taught if in diet culture that it’s the worst thing in the world if we eat in response to our emotions, you know, like if we eat for comfort and like, can we normalize that? Like, of course, sometimes food gives us comfort, of course. You know, and it’s okay and I love Susie, how you said that’s one tool in my toolbox. And I have so many more and I think it really takes away that guilt and shame of, like, yeah, so I ate and it was comforting and I don’t have to beat myself up about that.

Ashley: Mhm.

Susie: Yeah. And, and, you know, emotional eating doesn’t have to turn into a binge. I think the danger of it becoming a binge is when you’re not acknowledging that you’re eating for comfort, when you’re not acknowledging this is an emotional response because then you’re not as in control of what you’re doing. I mean, I think obviously, like emotional eating is not something that is the, like the healthiest coping mechanism. And I do work on that in therapy and with my nutritionist of like recognizing it, naming it and coming up with other way to tolerate emotions, but like I said, it is still, I mean, you can’t unlearn it. You just work around it.

Sam: Just awareness is such a big part of the work, just being aware. And, you know, we often run into issues when we keep using the same strategy over and over again. It’s like, that’s your only tool in the toolbox. It’s like, yes, that’s probably going to cause issues. And so I love this idea of like adding to the toolbox and experimenting with all of these other strategies.

Susie: Yeah, for sure. And it’s going to be different for everyone of like what, what’s the most effective, um, tool for emotional tolerance. I know some, a lot of people I know journal. There are a lot of things you can do. It’s just a matter of trial and error and figuring out which one works.

Sam: Was there anything in day treatment that was helpful that surprised you?

Susie: So, I do have a story of a group in treatment. It was an IOP. It’s the eating with emotion group, where you’re eating a snack and feeling how that’s impacting the emotional response in your body. I was surprised that that ended up being helpful to me the first time I did it, I got really angry, like apologies to the therapist who was running that group, because I was like, this is stupid and I hate this, like I don’t need to know. When I was in IOP, that group happened to fall on the same day as a field trip that we did to a mall food court where we had to like to build our own dinner. And so that was stressful already and then we came back and, and we’re doing this eating with emotion group and everyone’s kind of on edge for the food court experience. And doing that group and recognizing like I can feel the anxiety and stress physically leave my body as I eat food and being really mad because I’m like, yes, I that’s why I was here because I know that eating controls my emotions. I don’t need to have this group tell me that eating controls my emotions. That’s the disorder, that’s the thing. I remember being really just like triggered by that whole experience. And I think what was surprising to me later is like, oh no, wait, actually having that awareness is really helpful because that’s what led me to what we were just talking about of knowing like that’s a tool in my emotional toolbox. I think it is surprising sometimes when something that comes up in treatment that you’re initially kind of hesitant to or triggered by can often end up being like what is the most useful to you in the long run.

Ashley: Yeah.

Sam: Isn’t that amazing? I talk with so many alums in recovery who often say, I mean, one of the themes that comes up is that how important it is to keep an open mind because you really never know what you’re going to get out of something, you know, and it, you might think it’s stupid or you might think it’s not going to be helpful and then actually when you try it, you discover something that is surprising or unexpected.

Susie: I think that’s true of the group dynamic too, of like being a person with binge eating disorder, and being in groups with people who restrict as their main symptom, it can be hard at first to recognize like, that you can learn something from them, because it does feel like they’re very opposite disorders. But like I said earlier, like learning that they kind of all come from the same root of the emotional side of it is really helpful. But it can be hard, like I would say to people who are seeking treatment for binge eating and and being treated in a group that is kind of all eating disorders where you may be in a group with a lot of people who restrict rather than binge to just keep in mind that one, we all grew up in the same toxic diet culture. So, a lot of the things that get spoken about in group can be triggering for someone like me who lives in a larger body. For women to say like I’m afraid of recovery because I’m afraid of getting fat. Like to hear someone’s worst fear is something that you are, can be a real challenge. And so, I think that keeping an open mind is really important with recognizing one people’s fear of fatness is not about being fat, it’s about how we stigmatize fat people. And two that you still can learn from somebody who has that fear and has opposite symptoms that you have because it’s the same root cause of the emotional tolerance that’s leading to the symptoms.

Sam: So well said. Thank you for pointing that out. And emotional avoidance is, is at the root. We talk about this all the time on the podcast. You know, emotional avoidance is the common denominator, and everyone has that in common regardless of the eating disorder that you have.

Ashley: Susie, it makes me curious like, so once you received the diagnosis and you started doing treatment, what was it like for you to one, acknowledge the diagnosis, accept the diagnosis and start talking about it. Because I think even like the concept of group therapy can be daunting because hey, you’ve just received this diagnosis and now you’re in a room with other people and like for 5 to 6 hours a day. And so, you’re supposed to talk about yourself. We know that binge eating disorder can thrive on shame and secrecy and feelings of guilt. And so, what was that like to then start using your voice after having received this diagnosis and start talking about your story, you know, or to even say to that person that maybe was like, I’m scared of getting fat, like, hey, I want to share with you how that landed with me. I feel like I’ve asked you like 8,000 questions but what was it like? Go! (laughter)

Susie: I think it’s really obviously challenging as a person with people pleasing tendencies to kind of call out how things are landing with you in group. It took me a few weeks to warm up to that idea. It’s helpful that you don’t really have a choice. I mean, I guess everyone has a choice. Like I could have sat in a group and been silent, but that seemed like it kind of defeated the purpose. I do think it was helpful for me that I was there of my own fruition. I wanted to recover. I was seeking that. I felt ready to do it. I think that was helpful. I think something that was helpful to me was like curating my social media, that was an exercise that we did in treatment as well. They gave us our phones for one group session, you don’t usually have them, but they gave it back to us for a group session and kind of encouraged us to unfollow people who made us feel worse about ourselves, follow people who made us feel better about ourselves or felt more validated or less alone. So, curating my social media with other people who are like me, I think really helped. All different body sizes, all different ethnicities, just kind of all people who recognize that body size and self-worth are not related. I found that to be really helpful. And it’s really gave me like courage to speak on that as well. Seeing other people do, it is really helpful. Obviously, there’s still a lot of backlash, especially when speaking about binge eating disorder. There are still a lot of people who don’t recognize it as a real thing, who think that it is a lack of self-control. But I think there are far more people who recognize the value in speaking about it. I don’t know, it’s just, it’s daunting, you know, to kind of put yourself out there as like an advocate. But I think the more people who speak on it, the more understood it will be. I think I’m just trying to, to let people know that regardless of body size, your worth and value doesn’t change and also that people of all body sizes can be impacted by eating disorders of all kinds.

Sam: I love that.

Ashley: I do too. Thank you.

Sam: In recovery, now, how do you take care of yourself? What are your non-negotiables? How do you maintain recovery?

Susie: I mean, it’s, it can still be a challenge. I do get worn down by it sometimes just because the mental load is so high. Sometimes it feels like there are people in the world who just eat meals without thinking about it and that’s wild to me. I think one of the things that really helps me is planning, my week goes exponentially better if I’ve planned in advance some options for eating. I don’t get so detailed anymore as I did when I was first in treatment of like planning each exchange for each meal, but I do just make sure I have things in my house that I like eating because there are times when it feels really hard to make a meal. I just think it’s really helpful to have things that feel very easy to eat. So that’s helpful. Learning those things about yourself, like, what are your barriers and how can you get around them. Like for me, hydration was a huge thing. I was severely dehydrated even years into recovery, I’m just like not a water drinker. And so I found that I have to carry my big cup everywhere with me and then I just drink water. You know, it’s just about finding those like little things that for lack of a better word, hack your brain of like, you know, this is the thing I’m bumping up against, how can we remove that? And so, I work a lot with my nutritionist and with my therapist who to kind of identify those and identify roadblocks and, and work to get around those.

Sam: Thanks for sharing all that. How about support? Who do you get support from? How does support play into your recovery?

Susie: I am very lucky, that my husband cooks the majority of our meals. I really don’t know how I would feed myself without him. We talk a lot about meals that are kind of one and done. Like, here’s a bowl that has all of your food groups, one bowl that has everything. That sometimes just feels easier and I think we sit down once a week and just plan out meals for the next week before we go grocery shopping. So that’s a huge relief to me for that kind of mental load to be split with him and for him to kind of play on, like, if I had to be the one who, like, remember to take meat out of the freezer, I would just have to not eat meat. Like, I would just have to be a vegetarian. I would never remember to do that. So he takes care of that for me and that’s really helpful. I’m really lucky that I have, like, really good close friends who I can be vulnerable with. And I’ve gotten really good at telling on myself when I’m having thoughts that are not so recovery focused, which does still happen, especially in the diet culture that we live in where I’m getting an urge. I think one of my more recent ones was like, I’m getting the urge to download a certain app, a certain app that people use for calorie tracking. And my best friend was like, I will not speak to you again until you send me a screenshot, showing me that app is on your phone and we don’t do that anymore. I’m like, okay, so, you know, I just have, I’m, I’m just really lucky that I have friends who I can go to and say like this is the thought I’m having can you remind me why that’s not helpful?

Susie: Yes, you are lucky. But I also hear you saying that you’re actively, like you mentioned, like telling on yourself, like bringing it up. Like talking about it and seeking that support you’re attending, you’re seeing a therapist, you’re seeing a dietician. So, like you’re keeping yourself connected as well.

Susie: Yeah, for sure. And I think that’s really important, and I fully recognize that I am super lucky to have access to that kind of care. So, I fully recognize my privilege and that I am able to, to do that for myself. I definitely think if you’re able, it’s super important to have those touch points and I did go through a period where I didn’t have health insurance and the outpatient group that is self-pay like that became everything for me to have a weekly touch point. Social media also, while it can be like the worst for recovery, it can also be a really positive recovery space if you curate it correctly. There are lots of ways for people to connect, but I think connection is definitely how you stay in a recovery mindset.

Sam: Hm, I agree. I realize we are just about out of time, Susie and I’m sad because I feel like we could talk for a long time about this. For our listeners out there who might be struggling with binge eating disorder or binge eating episodes. What is one takeaway you’re hoping that they leave this episode with?

Susie: I hope that a big takeaway is that there’s no shame, as much as it can feel shameful, it doesn’t, it’s morally neutral. It doesn’t make you a bad person to struggle with emotional avoidance or binge eating. It just means that you, you know, there are other coping mechanisms that are more helpful. But having that doesn’t make you a bad person. And I think so often the messaging is that, you know, anything associated with weight gain is a downfall, you know, in our society. And I think there are even people who have been advocates for binge eating disorder who still come at it from a weight loss perspective which is frustrating. I guess I just want people to know that you’re worthy regardless of what your body looks like, regardless of how you cope with your emotions and that there are people out there who can help and it’s just a matter of getting connected.

Sam: Thank you so much, Susie for your vulnerability, your willingness to share your story. I’m so grateful because I know there’s so many people out there who will benefit from hearing this episode. So, thank you so much.

Susie: Thank you for having me.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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