Podcast Transcript

Episode 37: “Did I Say the Right Thing?”: Building a Body-Positive Home with Zoë Bisbing, MSW, LCSW

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam.

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley. And you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome. We would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Sam: Welcome back to another episode of All Bodies. All Foods. I’m Sam and I’m here with my co-host Ashley and we have a very special guest today. So many parents and caregivers desperately want their child to have a good relationship with food and a good relationship with their body. And it makes sense so many parents want these things for their children. Disordered eating, dieting and body dissatisfaction are all major risk factors for eating disorders and eating disorders are serious. They’re the second deadliest psychiatric disorder in the DSM-5. But so many parents often confess that when their kid comes home one day and says mom, dad, I hate my body, their minds go blank. They question their instincts and worry. They didn’t say or do the right thing. That’s exactly why we invited Zoë to the show today. Zoë Bisbing, MSW, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist speaker and content creator. She is the director of Body Positive Therapy NYC and Body Positive Home, formally the Full Bloom Project, an educational resource offering workshops and body image workouts for the whole family. She loves teaching parents and professionals how to creatively build spaces where children of all ages, sizes and gender expressions can naturally boost immunity to our appearance-obsessed culture and decrease risk for disordered eating and body image issues. You can follow her on Instagram @mybodypositivehome for bite-sized body positive basics and body image hacks. Zoë holds a Master of Social Work from New York University, a Bachelor of Arts from Smith College and a Certification in Family-Based Treatment from the Institute for Child and Adolescent Eating Disorders. A native New Yorker Zoë lives in Manhattan with her husband, three children and two dogs. Zoë, welcome to the show.

Zoë: Thank you. It’s like listening to your eulogy. But thank you so much for having me. It’s a topic near and dear to my heart and I love connecting with other eating disorder professionals about you know, the front end, right? What we can do to optimally put ourselves out of business, I always say.

Sam: I think this episode will be so helpful for parents. I cannot tell you how many parents through the years, they find out, I’m a therapist for eating disorders and one of the first things they ask me, they start listing all the ways they think they’ve messed up. Oh, I said this. What do you think? I should have said. And that’s when I thought to myself, we have got to have Zoë on this show. But I would love to hear a little more about you Zoë, as a clinician, but also as a person. What led you to the mental health field and why body image and eating disorders?

Zoë: So, I had been a classically trained dancer and like professional child, I had performed as a kid here in New York City and I was very dedicated to becoming a ballet dancer. That was like my one track goal and through my experience, you know, like it’s no secret that eating disorders are a rampant in the dance community. So, I think I had a sense that I knew a lot about disordered eating and body image issues from my very tiny corner of the classical ballet world. And then I took ballet as far as my body would let it take me and in college, I sort dabbled in other forms of dance and theater. And I couldn’t quite find my way. I couldn’t quite figure out exactly what I wanted, but I had always thought maybe one day after I retired from my ballet career as an older person, I would become a therapist. So, in my own soul searching to figure out what am I going to be when I grow up now that I’m not a dancer anymore, I thought maybe I’ll go become a therapist. And I think I thought I knew a lot about disordered eating and body image issues because of dance. So, it sort of informed the path that I kind of took within the social workspace. But then when I worked on an inpatient unit in an actual eating disorder psychiatric unit, I learned what eating disorders really are. And, you know, I was humbled to realize that I think I had a very basic understanding as it may pertain to, you know, sports that have a unique demand on bodies, certainly disordered eating. But the kind of psychiatric, profoundly, life threatening illness it can be, this was what I learned and then realized especially as a social worker on the unit. I was doing a lot of family work and I found that really kind of amazing. I loved the educational aspect of it. And so from there, I mean, unfortunately, if you’re interested even a little bit in eating disorders, I think you can have a very successful career because sadly, there are a lot of them and I think one thing led to another and a lot of my work as a therapist, working with adults and young children and teens with eating disorders, drove my interest in prevention work because it’s just so damn hard to beat these illnesses and especially when I became a parent, I think it all sort of came together and at the time, the Full Bloom Project was born, which has now since evolved into Body Positive Home.

Ashley: Thanks Zoë. So, about your program specifically, Body Positive Home, I would love to hear more about that. What does that mean? How can we know that we have a body positive home? And I’m thinking of this through the lens of, so like all three of us were therapists on here and we’ve discussed body positivity, we’ve discussed body neutrality, body respect, kind of all these words and all this lingo. And so, what does body positive home mean? And how can we implement that? How do we know if we have that or if we don’t?

Zoë: So many questions! (everyone laughs) I think that’s partly why I built Body Positive Home because I think we all can build body positive homes so long as we understand what all of those terms mean, the ones you just mentioned. And, and as long as we are willing to kind of, you know, grab the template that I’m hopefully offering people and then sort of go from there. So, the idea for body positive home, when I say prevention, you know, my passion for sort of “preventing eating disorders” and I always quote it because like, we can’t really prevent them. For some families, early intervention, early detection is the prevention, right? Like being able to notice a problem. In some cases, it’s going to be to actually prevent any kind of illness from taking over for any particular kid. But body positive home for me is a value system. And that’s where I think about this term body positivity. I think it’s grossly misunderstood what body positivity is. And I really look at body positivity as a value system that if you believe that all bodies are good bodies and that those bodies, regardless of their size, shape, level of ability, all of it, gender expression, if you believe that all bodies are deserving of a positive relationship to their own body, you are body positive. This is different from feeling good about my body.

Ashley: Yes.

Zoë: And by the way, you know, I appreciate some people don’t really like the term body positivity because they prefer body liberation, for example, which you know, sort of rejects the idea of anybody having a positive relationship with their body, given the sort of levels of oppression that exists at that face, marginalized bodies. And I totally get that, I don’t think everybody has equal access to a positive relationship with their body. But if you believe that even that person who doesn’t have a positive relationship with their body deserves one, I think this is body positive values in my body positive home, right? So, I think body neutrality is different. But I do think in some ways a body positive home, or a body positive family is hoping to raise children that have a body positive value system, right? So that they’re looking out into the world, observing body diversity and being like that’s, that’s awesome. And those people are facing oppression and that’s wrong. And I want to try to fix that in the world, but that doesn’t necessarily need to translate to and I love my body. It might hopefully translate to, I’m accepting of it, right? And you can have body positive values and terrible body image. You can have very good body image and not such body positive values. So, much of building a body positive home I think involves doing a little work to learn what these terms mean, which I hope to make accessible to people. So that then from there, you can sort of figure out well, what does that mean for like the way I feed my kids or what does that mean for the way I orient to work, um, exercise or what kind of books do I bring into my home or art? Do I hang it on the walls? Like this is sort of what I like to bring to life and sort of personify it as a home.

Ashley: I really appreciate that so much. We were talking a little bit before we started recording this and I let you know, I have a two-year-old and she’s my daughter and so like even thinking of raising a young woman in this culture sometimes feels a little scary for me, but kind of the avenue that you’re approaching this as more of the prevention and of the advocacy of like understanding what our underlying value system is and letting that help navigate us forward in openness and accepting of all bodies because all bodies are deserving of being here and of being present and of being loved. So, I just, I love that framework. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Sam: I’m curious, Zoë. When you’re working with parents and you’re sort of presenting this value system, are there any barriers? You know, working as an eating disorder therapist for over a decade, I’m thinking about some of the things I hear from parents, you know, they want their kid to like how they look or they really link up like weight and health and they might say but I want my kid to be healthy. I want my kid to have a healthy body. Do you ever hear this sort of?

Zoë: Yes. Oh my gosh.

Sam: I would love to know how do you help parents who are saying these kinds of things?

Zoë: So, you know, in my framework, as you say, I have these like five fundamentals, and one is all bodies are good bodies. One is all foods are good food. It’s like we’re a match made in heaven on this podcast.

Sam: Sounds like our title!

Zoë: The third one is… health is such a tricky word because I do believe that in order to really embody body positive values, where you’re really going to honor all bodies, you know, we’re not just talking about all shapes and sizes, but also like levels of health, right? Levels of access to health. And I find, you know, I, I love the Health at Every Size framework. It’s definitely embedded in my own understanding of like actual well-being and moving away from health, it certainly informs my eating disorder practice. But I find to, to your point, you know, parents don’t have a lot of time and like, you know, being like read this book about health at every size and how we need to separate health from weight in order to really center a person’s health and dignity. I find sometimes just saying, you know, health is such a tricky word is almost like the that that’s the nugget, right? Health is tricky. I totally want my kids to have a healthy body. I know that I can’t measure that based on what it looks like. So, I want parents to, I will say to them, of course you do, by the way, as parents, that’s our job to keep our children healthy and safe. But I do think we need to appreciate that health is not something that’s entirely in our control and that there are all sorts of genetic realities, environmental realities, mental health intersecting with physical health. Like there’s so much going on here. And I think I can say to a parent I know you want to raise a healthy child. That’s why I want you to build a body positive home. But I also don’t want you to moralize around health. I want you really to understand the difference between weight and health because when you say, well, I want my kid to eat healthy. Well, me too. But I want us to have an expansive definition of healthy, both as it pertains to physical well-being and our relationship to food. I think eating disorder therapists, I just know when I meet one like we always have this deep sense of what healthy eating means. it’s a behavioral health we’re looking for too. It’s not healthy to be afraid to eat cookies, it’s not healthy to feel out of control around cookies, right? Like we want to think about the positive eating attitude, etc. So, that can be a barrier. But I find in my experience the way I’ve been able to bring people in, it’s to say yes, I hear you. And, and this is why actually reworking on these values, right? Body positive values and moving away again from oppressive definitions of health. Why that that doesn’t really serve you or your child or the world. Like some people don’t care, some people just don’t, aren’t interested, you know, they’re maybe going to follow another influencer on a juice cleanse or something. But for me, I think bringing people in to say yes, of course. And here’s how we can actually talk about health in ways that don’t have unintended psychological consequences.

Sam: Yeah. It’s really helping parents understand that you’re on the same page and have the same goals. I was looking through some of your workshops in your program and I love this concept of renovating your home and to make it a body positive space, you know, even renovating the different rooms, the closet, the kitchen, the living room. And I’m just so curious, would you be able to expand on that. What are some ways families can renovate the space is where they live?

Zoë: Yeah, I mean, I think that this can be concrete and practical and also abstract. But for the sake of practicality, I think, for example, the closet. I think a lot of patients that I’ve worked with later in life have very upsetting memories of their bodies growing, expanding, going through puberty, and outgrowing clothing and having that be like a very shame-filled experience. Maybe even a parent who was anxious about those body changes, not knowing how to just say something like that piece of clothing is not working for your body anymore. You deserve clothing that affirms your body. I’m going to go get that for you. There’s nothing wrong with your body. Like very few people from our generation heard that. So, a way of renovating the closet, it’s sort of like you’re renovating the way you you’re going to relate to clothing in your family. And so, I have what I call ‘not working for my body anymore’ bags in our closets at home that are like you could just take a Target bag and write, ‘not working for my body anymore’. And it sort of puts a system in place that even before a child can feel like what’s wrong with me, that my pants don’t close. Not all children are going to have that thought, but some are. Some are going to be like, oh it just goes in this bag, you know, like it just doesn’t work for my body anymore. And so, putting a system in place and then allowing that system to support you as a parent because it’s normal for parents to be uncomfortable with body changes that their kids are having or anxious, especially if you have your own internalized anti-fat bias and like who doesn’t having grown up in this culture. But I think that this process, by the way, you can have one too in your closet, like our bodies don’t stop changing even as adults and just really become a family that says, you know what, like we demand our clothing works for our bodies. We’re never going to try to change our bodies to fit into clothing. And so, you go to Goodwill nearby and drop off clothing and find new clothing. And you know, there’s accessibility barriers obviously, like if you can’t afford new clothing or if you have trouble accessing sizes. This is true too, it’s an additional stress factor. There could be sensory issues too. Like the pants don’t fit right, the tags or you know. You deserve pants that feel okay, we’re not going to stop till we find them. Like it’s sort of centering these values that I think are, are eating disorder prevention, you know. Um, but it, but scaffolding it into your home. So, it’s not like now we’re going to talk about eating disorder prevention, right? But rather it just becomes sort of part of the way we, we operate as a family.

Sam: I love that so much.

Ashley: I do too. That is so beautiful. And I’m thinking like I wrote it down, the phrase, this is not working for my body, instead of and I’m thinking of a phrase that I’ve probably said before and I know so many people have, I can’t fit in that anymore. And it like it completely shifts the narrative that I’m telling myself completely and it take like saying this is not working for my body anymore. Takes any kind of that like yucky, self-degrading, shame that I might be experiencing with a changing body away by using this method that oh, I love that Zoe.

Zoë: Oh, I’m so glad. I mean, and I’ll, connect another little dot which I think is relevant particularly for your 2-year-old. So, I normally have a copy here. So, I don’t know if you know, I mean, Eric Carle is famous but this book A House for Hermit Crab. This is not about body image. Let me be clear. But I think this sort of connects, so you’ve got this system in your home, the not working for my body anymore bag and then this is not like there’s, there are books that you might bring into your family. Certainly, if you have little kids, like bodies are cool and big and these newer books that are truly body positive celebrating all bodies. I recently got this Everybody book from someone at the Brooklyn Public Library sent it to me, but this is not one of these books. However, a House for Hermit Crab is a story of a hermit crab and on first page, he says, oh, my shell is too small for me time to move. And he goes on a journey where he very neutrally just outgrows his shell. And then he asks all these other animals to like to come along with him to like to make it cute and help him keep clean and have safety and lights and, and then at the end, he outgrows it again and he’s like, oh, time to move again. And then he finds another little hermit crab and he’s like, oh, you can have my shell and I call it hermit crab wisdom because it’s like as a body positive, what nurturer you could read this, which is just like a book about a little hermit crab moving on, you know, and find a little lesson in there on like body neutrality. And then you can say, oh, just like us when our clothing doesn’t fit anymore, we get a new shell and you know, we have to have shells that fit our bodies because it’s harder to take care of your body and feel good in your body if it’s too snug, right. You know, and you start to, you see as eating disorder therapists, how it’s like reverse engineering, so much of the work that we do. And so, a little book like this because I’m obsessed with this stuff. I see the eating disorder prevention everywhere. But I do think that if people kind of come along, they’re like, oh my, what a beautiful lesson. And yes, just like I not working for my body anymore bag. So this is like a connection.

Sam: Yes, I’ve had conversations with obviously so many people in recovery being in this position. And I can’t tell you how many people say that wearing comfortable clothing was such a huge piece of their recovery. And they were surprised about it. I think when we think about body image, we forget how important just having access to comfortable clothes is how big of a difference it can make.

Zoë: Enormous difference. I mean, and again, this is partly why again, going back to the more values-based stance, if you believe all bodies are good bodies and are deserving of equity and all of these things. Like we have a big problem in our culture. If not, everybody can walk into store and access comfortable clothes, it’s a tremendous problem. And I would like to think that kids that get to grow up in a body positive home can become the fashion designers that make different choices about that or the, you know, photo of the photographers that do campaigns that continue to promote diversity. So, I think it’s a but it’s so funny how it’s almost one of these like no brainers. Like, obviously you should be comfortable and yet people really don’t make that initial connection. But I, I mean, I send nonpregnant people for maternity clothes all the time during recovery because it’s just like, let it, you got to wear clothing that is like kind and it’s saying to you like change, grow, expand, all good, right?

Sam: Yes.

Ashley: Well, and I feel like fashion in general has shifted, maybe I would say in the last 20 years. Like I’m, almost 40, and growing up, I’ve always lived in a larger body, there were no clothes for me, you know, it was like my mom would take me to like Talbots or something, you know, and I’m like, there’s nothing here that’s pretty, you know, or like, I don’t feel like a cute teenager or anything like that. And so, the value of actually finding something that does fit on my body well, and like, I feel good and confident, and it feels so good to be able to have that experience.

Zoë: Yes.

Ashley: I’m thinking Zoë, going back to this body home renovation. So, when we’re actively working on renovating our home, we’re working on changing our language. We’re working on supporting our kiddos and ourselves and along comes Aunt Polly, who is…

Zoë: Everyone’s got Aunt Polly. (everyone laughs)

Sam: Not Aunt Polly. (everyone laughs)

Ashley: She’s very focused on that, you know, that, air quote ‘health’ again. And, and she might bring in things like, you know, like, oh, that’s too much candy or we’re not eating, you know, again, air quote ‘junk food’ right now. Yada yada. How do we move forward in voicing and advocating for the fact that we are doing a body renovation home? And this is a value system that we intend to uphold.

Zoë: I hear you. I mean, and I think partly why I, you know, there’s a lot of like, if you’re on social media content about this, like here’s how you talk to Aunt Polly, you know, and I, I’ve, I’ve tried those, but I think part of what I really appreciate about this is that interpersonal effectiveness is a skill. And so if Aunt Polly happens to also be kind of like a narcissist, it’s going to be harder to set a limit with her then Aunt Fran who maybe is just like, I didn’t know I, I’d love to learn more about how to help you affirm their bodies. And that’s in a way a kind of for everyone to think about like who are these family members? What kind of, how flexible are they? Do they listen to me, how am I doing with my boundary setting? Because there are going to be situations, you know, if you think about, let’s say your kid is struggling with body image, maybe they are going through puberty. So, they are actually gaining weight. And you know that like bringing them to Aunt Polly’s house is like going to be catastrophic because there’s just no way Aunt Polly’s not saying something about their body in front of them. And you know, this kid is at risk, like if you can’t talk to Aunt Polly ahead of time to be like, listen, you know, Jenny has gained weight since the last time you saw her, she’s going through puberty, she’s healthy, she’s doing great. And one of the ways you can support her is to just don’t comment on her body. Ask her about her life, if Aunt Polly is like, well, I won’t do that, then I don’t think you can go to Aunt Polly’s house. However, if you can sort of cope ahead, you know, set the boundary. And Polly says I don’t want to do anything to upset her, of course. You know, like, so it really has a lot to do. I think with the people you’re dealing with and then your own ability. And I think that those are skills that we can help people with, right? Like, think about DBT skills around interpersonal effectiveness. I teach those all the time for these questions when parents have these questions because it’s not that big an ask to say to somebody, please don’t talk about your diet in front of my kid. And yet if you are a person that struggles to ask for what you need, it’s going to be terrifying to you, right? So, I wish there was like a ‘say this’. I think I kind of modeled how I might handle it. And, you know, it depends on your personality and if somebody just sort of ad libs, like I could see a grandparent just making a kind of stupid, loose lipped comment that I kind of notice, I might say something like, hey, you know, please, this is, this is what we don’t need to body shame here. You know, I might handle it casually. I might look to an older child.  I might say like, oh my, grandpa is just never going to learn. Let’s go over here and enjoy our cake. You know, like I think that there’s, you know, you got to be attuned to the kid. You’re with the family members you’re with. And so, I, I encourage people to take the, the social media advice about this with a grain of salt because I could see how people say, well, I can’t imagine saying that to my mother-in-law. Like she would be so offended. Well, what else aren’t you saying to your mother-in-law? You know, and how’s that working out for you? And do you need some guidance around that? Right. Like I want to appreciate the complexities of human relationships

Sam: And culture too. I think, you know, it’s just not always realistic to be able to tell grandma what she should and shouldn’t say depending on your culture. So, I think that’s such a good point. It really depends on, you know, your relationships and the people in your life.

Zoë: I think that’s a great point about culture. And I guess the one thing I’ll say is if as a body positive nurturer, if I’m really embodying my values, I’m going to err on the side of advocacy, I’m going to err on the side of saying something. If it feels like in the way that like if someone made a racist comment, would you just laugh or roll your eyes or might you say like, grandpa, no, we don’t talk that way anymore like we don’t, you know, but also what it, you might be raising kids that are again culturally relative, but like a kid who’s, you know, 11-year-old, 9-year-old who’s sort of into activism might hear something and say, what are you doing? Like, you know, that’s inappropriate. I don’t know. My kids think they can say whatever they want about things like that but again, I think the more you embody these values, I think the, not the easier it is but the more worth it feels to say something and then other times it’s just not going to either feel worth it or even necessary.

Ashley: Sam, your thought reminded me and to be honest, I can’t remember if I heard this concept on the podcast or another training that I did, but the idea of external versus internal boundaries when we attend something, you know, if culturally it might not be appropriate to set that external boundary or that limit, how can we prepare ourselves internally prior to going, prior to experiencing that and reminding ourselves of that value system that we want so badly to uphold not only for ourselves but for our loved ones involved as well, I think is something that can help us with those internal boundaries. So, so that if the comments do happen, they don’t land or sting as hard.

Sam: We were talking earlier, Zoe about your Instagram account. We’re huge fans of it, @mybodypositivehome and you have these great bite sized videos to help parents with the tough questions that their kids, you know, they, these, you know, so many parents tell me they completely freeze up when their kids say certain things. And I thought maybe on this episode, if it’s okay, we can give some examples of some tough questions and how you might coach a parent through it. So, how about your kid comes home and says mom, I hate my body. I look so fat. How do you help a parent?

Zoë: First, I would invite the parent to like to take a deep breath because that’s a hard, it’s just hard, it’s really hard to hear your kid speak that way about themselves. You know, if they, they hate their body, right? And it’s really hard, especially if you’re doing all this work to hear them equate, hating their body with thinking they’re fat or being fat, you know. So, I would say to a parent, like you take a deep breath and remember that something really important just happened, that your kid came to you. That is like already, wow, you’re a really good parent, like you did really well, if that already happened. So, I would want the parent to know that in a way as upsetting as it is, you’re off to a really good start because they came to you. And then I might just say, I’m so glad you’re telling me that you feel this way. It’s an awful to feel bad about your body. That’s a terrible feeling. You said you think you are fat? Like what? Or, or if, if that’s what they said, you, you know, you think you look so fat, like, can you tell me more? Like, what, what do you mean? Some kids don’t mean the same thing by that? Um, you know, I, I wouldn’t leap in with, there’s nothing wrong with being fat right away. I think I would try to be like, what do you, what do you mean? What are you feeling? What do you see, try to get him to talk to you and then just say like it is, you know, can you tell me more? I’m just so glad you came to me with this. This is something you want to reinforce that they came to you and to remember that feeling, I feel so fat. I am so fat usually is a confused idea. Like sometimes it is genuinely a kid in a larger body looking around being like I am bigger than my peers. And that feels scary and bad. That’s different from sometimes people mean, I feel awkward, I feel unworthy, I feel ashamed, right? Like that feeling can mean so many things. So as parents, I think we just want to not assume we know what they mean and just keep it really open. And not, you know, again, I think you answer it, and you proceed very differently based on the actual size of your child. Because if you do have a child in a larger body who’s talking this way to you. I think being able to validate what they’re noticing. That their body is bigger. Maybe that’s what they say. Oh, I’m so much bigger than all the, the other 12-year-old girls in my class. I might say something like I, I see that too. You are bigger than them. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it can be harder to be shaped differently. We don’t have a lot of control over those things, but I’m just so glad you’re talking to me about this. I’m here for you, you know. And then I wouldn’t add that part for a kid that, you know, a kid who’s, let’s say, average to smaller in size to other or thinner than other peers. You, your kid might be struggling with body dysmorphia. It’s possible, right? So, keeping that line of communication open might even allow you to be like, wow, I got to get my kid evaluated, right. So, I think that that, that’s where I’d go.

Sam: Thank you for that. I think that’s so helpful. What about parents get tripped up with food questions? So, if a kid asks, can I have ice cream for breakfast today? A lot of parents ask, I didn’t know what to say.

Zoë: Yeah, I mean, I think as parents, like we do get to decide what is on the menu and what isn’t. And I think there’s a lot of different ways. I think so much of this, like I talk a lot about exquisite attunement like to the child before you. So, there’s so many different reasons for why a kid might ask for ice cream for breakfast. And there’s also so many reactions a parent might have. I think it’s completely reasonable to say it’s just not one of the options today, but like that’s actually, I think we should have that later for dessert with dinner. How about that? Or not today. I didn’t plan for that today, but how about we put some on your waffle tomorrow. Or sure, you know, like we can have a little scoop of ice cream. I could see ice cream next to the fruit. Like, why not? I don’t think that any of those are wrong. I think they’re all reasonable, but I think it’s sort of, it really has to do with what feels right to the parent, given that kids sort of evolving relationship to food. I think some parents feel nervous about saying no, because they fear that they’re going to, I don’t know, create the opposite of a food, neutral environment or shame the child. What I think is, especially if you’re saying No, I think it’s important to be like, wow, I love that idea. It’s not an option right now. But how about tomorrow? Like you want to reinforce there’s nothing wrong with wanting that but it’s just, I’m not serving it right now. And then if do get upset, like let them have their feelings and then, you know, sometimes if it’s going on and on and on over the course of many days, like give them the freaking ice cream, like maybe that’s what they needs, you know, but so much of how you would sort of navigate questions like that, I think has to do with this sort of bigger picture of the relationship to food, you know, you’re noticing with the child.

Sam: You know, I’m noticing with these questions, you’re really pointing out opportunities to really just get curious and learn more about what’s going on in your kids head and, and what they’re feeling, and these are really opportunities where you can deepen your relationship with your child and make it more likely they’re going to come to you in the future. Love it. So, for anyone listening out there, if you want to learn more, you have all kinds of videos with these types of questions. Head to @mybodypositivehome on Instagram.

Ashley: I have one more question. We’re kind of running out of time but I, I was hoping that we could get to this. So you offer an individualized program called Body Neutral Eyes, which includes a body image workout for your brain and the support of a personal body image trainer. What exactly is this intervention? And how can it help someone struggling with body image?

Zoë: Yeah. So, this is a riff on mirror exposure therapy which we incorporate into our clinical work but in my group practice, so it’s really in its sort of psychotherapy form, is really excellent for body image work for folks struggling with disordered eating, body image issues, eating disorders. But this workout is, or this kind of program can be repurposed as like what I call a body image workout just for anybody who’s like, I just want to feel better looking at my body, right? And so, it’s a progressive, it’s like six sessions and it’s a progressive experience where you are guided with your body image trainer through an exercise of looking in the mirror at your body in like progressively less and less clothing. And we guide you through observing, using neutral objective descriptive language to observe and describe what you see now, what you think you see, not what grosses you out, but literally just what you see from the front, from the back, from the side. It’s pretty remarkable. Like what this allows people to do sort of reorient to the way they see themselves. I mean, I, ideally, we don’t want people thinking a whole lot about what their body looks like. Right. That’s a disembodied experience of the world but there is something about being able to give yourself an opportunity to look with, as I say, neutral eyes and you can’t simultaneously judge and observe at the same time. So, this is sort of the neutralizing effect and I play around with this with kids too. I mean, body neutralizes for adults, or I guess a teen could do it too. But I think about the shape game that I like to play with my little girl where it’s just like, can you find a triangle on your face or how about an oval or a curve, you know, and it’s, again, it’s like completely neutral language and it’s playful, right? Because being able to observe bodies neutrally and have access to that descriptive language is very protective.

Ashley: that’s awesome. Thank you. So, as we wrap up, any place you would want our listeners to go to find more material, how can they visit your website, your Instagram? Where would you like to send our listeners to get more material.

Zoë: Sure. I mean, either the website which is www.bodypositivehome.com or as Sam kindly plugged my Instagram. It’s, it’s fairly active @mybodypositivehome. Between the website and the social media profile, there’s announcements of when new workshops are coming up. I just wrapped a really nice workshop series that walked through these kinds of fundamentals that you were referencing. And you know, if you’re looking to, you know, prevent eating disorders, or raise a kid that has a better relationship with food and body than you do. So much of the prevention work I do, I think is very self-healing for anyone that has residual issues. So those are the two places to find me right now.

Ashley: Thank you so much, Zoë: This has been so lovely connecting with you and learning about what your thoughts and your offerings on the body positive home, we really appreciate it. And thank you to our listeners for joining us for another episode. And don’t forget if you have questions or comments, let us know [email protected]. Thanks all.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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