Podcast Transcript

Episode 30: Fat is not an Insult: Let’s talk Fat Phobia, Weight Stigma, and all things Body Image with Mackenzie Fox

[Bouncy theme music plays.] 

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam!

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome, we would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Ashley: Hello, everybody. Ashley and Sam here. Welcome back to another episode of All Bodies. All Foods. I am super excited today because we have one of my friends and a fellow therapist, Mackenzie Fox, on the show with us today. Mackenzie is a therapist in the Nashville area who specializes in the treatment of body image concerns, anxiety, and depression, including co-occurring disorders, eating disorders, substance abuse and trauma. She serves as the Director of Operations for The Collective, a treatment center focused on social health and connection, and she is heavily involved in activism efforts, bringing awareness, and raising support for the eating disorder recovery community in the local Nashville area and particularly for folks in fat and plus size bodies. So, Mackenzie, welcome, thank you so much for being here!

Mackenzie: Yes, thank you for having me!

Ashley: Absolutely. So, we’re excited to talk to you today about the kind of work that you do, your advocacy efforts and things like that. So, I’m just curious if you could kick us off with sharing a little bit more of information about yourself, how you became a therapist and specifically how you started working with eating disorders and body image issues. Sound good?

Mackenzie: Yes. Love it. Like you said, I’m a therapist in the Nashville area and I’ve been working in this field, kind of in this capacity for about three years. I feel like I always sort of felt like the sensitive kid and that led me to in college, like really leaning into that to that sort of empathetic piece about me and studying psychology, studying sociology, was really obsessed with just like learning about people. And then graduated and went into like a totally different career field. So, I ended up at that same time, sort of struggling with my own eating disorder that took a long time to sort of label what that was, and I think as I began to do my own work, it kind of clicked like, oh, I want to do this. So, I went back to school, and I sort of knew that I wanted to work with eating disorders already really based a lot on my own experience of being a fat person who was really celebrated for my eating disorder behaviors for a long time.

Ashley: Oh, can you say a little bit more about that Mackenzie?

Mackenzie: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I think for me growing up, I’ve always been in a plus size body and so as I was participating in behaviors and my body was starting to change to be a little bit more um sort of what the socially preferred body is. I was really praised for like, oh my God, you’re like following this diet, you’re exercising this much and so it took me, I think a lot longer to recognize that those behaviors were really disordered.

Sam: This happens to so many people, getting praised, not only by peers, but even sometimes by doctors.

Mackenzie: Yeah. And I think for me, I can even remember a time to going to my doctor. I think after I had sort of identified like, oh, I think this is what I’m struggling with and telling him sort of the things that were going on for me and he really ended up kind of passing that off as something to maybe not be concerned about. So, then I went back again and kind of shared again what my concerns were, and he ended up diagnosing me with Binge Eating Disorder, which was not what I was struggling with at all, like I was very heavy with restriction.

Sam: There’s weight stigma, right in practice. Wow. Unbelievable.

Mackenzie: Yeah. And so that was kind of the first time that I was sort of faced with like, oh, this is weight stigma kind of at work.

Sam: Wow. I’m sure there are so many listeners out there that can relate to this. It’s like, why is it that weight loss no matter how it happens is considered healthier than not losing weight. It’s like, can we change this narrative? And it’s still happening out there in, in the medical field, in the mental health field. It’s just wild. Mackenzie, by the way, I, I don’t know if you remember, but I was front row at your talk in Nashville. I was just, I learned so much and so thank you so much for that. But you do so much work around supporting fat folks. And I just want to say, I know there’s probably listeners out there that are like, why are they even saying the word fat? Like they think fat is a bad word?

Makenzie: Yeah.

Sam: And I was hoping you can say a little bit about that too.

Mackenzie: Yeah. I mean, I think historically, fat has kind of been weaponized as like this bad thing that we’re not supposed to be. And for me, I think especially when I’m working with clients, I always want to kind of like pause and be like, how do you feel about this word? Um, because I think there’s so much wrapped up into it. There has been a big movement within the last probably 15 to 20 years to really sort of take back the word fat and, and let it be one, just something about us, right? That I am a person that exists in a fat body, right? But also, to like, not, not let it be as weaponized against folks in larger bodies as well.

Ashley: I’m curious, what have you seen as far as um kind of in that movement how have you seen the community, or your clients respond? How have their families responded? You know, I’m asking because it feels like such a cultural shift, such a change from like the norm of what we’ve come to learn as a society, you know, or maybe I’m talking about myself, you know, being in my late thirties. But I’m just, I’m so curious how people, community clients, family have responded to this shift.

Mackenzie: Yeah. You know, I think it like as I started working with this specific population, um I, I think I noticed that I was encountering a lot of clients who had similar experiences as I had and that it had just been like really detrimental to them. I’m really accustomed to working with systems, but as a therapist, I’m usually focused on like working with family systems or you know, what, how are you existing just in sort of like your immediate vicinity? But for us, a lot of these clients, I was having to take a step back and look at the larger system, which is our culture. And I found that it was honestly pretty sickening, which is like these folks who are fighting a battle with an eating disorder are also living in a society that kind of pins their bodies as a thing that we should be fearful of or hate or actively work against. And this is really like an added you like a hurdle and recovery that certainly is not necessarily unique to folks in, in larger bodies. I think this is an intersectional issue, but it is really outside of the norm of what we’re taught about eating disorders and sort of like the messaging that we have sort of historically received on social media. And so, when I’m talking about this, especially with like my clients’ families or people they might interact with are honestly my own family; thinking about like the sort of phrase that I have is like fat as a noun, fat as an adjective, but like fat is not an insult.

Ashley: How has that changed? I don’t know. I want to ask like, how’s that changed, you know, your trajectory in general, but like even thinking about your family and your friends, Mackenzie, like how is that? How is that shifted? How has that changed? And did it take a while?

Mackenzie: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s kind of constantly changing. Uh, you know, I think I have the, the, the folks in your, in your family, in your friend group, in your system, whoever you interact with that, that may never truly get it. Right. Um And I think a lot of that goes back to just the struggles that they might also be having with their own body because regardless of whether you have an eating disorder or struggling with disordered eating, people always exist in a body. So, you’re always going to have body image concerns. So, it’s not like I’m just talking about this one thing that only I experience, right? So, when I’m using the word fat, um to describe myself, other people are going to have responses to that based on their own kind of relationship with the word. And so, a lot of what I do, especially with my friends because they’re amazing and I love them and they were so supportive, especially during my early recovery is just education. I think about a particular story in general with my, I have a goddaughter. She’s eight now, but this probably happened when she was four. And she ran up to me and she put her hands on my belly, and she said, “wow, your belly is so big” and just like the fascination in her eyes. And I was like, yeah, it is. And her mom kind of snapped and she’s like, don’t say that that’s not okay. You know, because culturally, right, like, yes, we don’t want kids necessarily commenting on people’s bodies. But I was able to in that moment kind of use that as a learning lesson also for her mom of like, my goddaughter didn’t see that as a negative thing. She was just pointing out something about me. But even in her mom’s response to that is what sort of gave her that message that somehow this isn’t okay. And so, I think even in those moments, it’s, you know, and my friend, she’s amazing, she was able to hear it right. Um But sort of there is those little teaching moments there um for your, for your friends and family.

Ashley: That’s really helpful to hear and I’m just thinking of everybody as well that’s kind of listening in. I hope that, that they feeling something that they can relate to with the story and what you just shared. So, thank you!

Sam: Oh, I think it would be so helpful for parents who sometimes just have no idea what to say. And there’s, I love how you frame this. It’s like there’s a big difference between saying, you know, don’t, don’t call people big or don’t call body parts big compared to maybe we don’t comment on bodies. Like even those two statements, like carry entirely different messages, you know, and, and really one comment teaches that certain types of bodies are bad in some way. And then the other comment is more about boundaries, more about we don’t comment on anyone’s body. So, that’s so fascinating. I think parents often need help, kind of knowing what to say, but parents are so worried about their kids growing up with body image issues. And I’m curious how, Mackenzie, like how do you help parents who maybe come to you with those concerns?

Mackenzie: Yeah, I think so much of it starts honestly with just like doing, you know, as much as you can sort of your own reflection of like, what are those like, what is coming up for you? So, it’s often if I’m working with a teen client um who’s struggling with some body image concerns and they’re hearing things at home, I’m going to be talking to mom or dad about like, hey, if I say like, you know, maybe Finn isn’t always better, right? What comes up for you? Because so much of it is just automatic, right? Like once again, none of us are immune to the messaging that we receive um from our culture, from media, from whoever, right? We’re all receiving that message. I just think the difference is especially with folks in fat bodies is that like we’re living in the body that you’ve been told to sort of fear or not want to be. And so especially in my work with parents, like that is something I focus on of what is coming up for you and helping them do some of that own work, some of that own investigation too.

Ashley: I kind of want to share this, Sam and I were talking before you hopped on Mackenzie just about like, kind of like the fear of saying the wrong thing. Um, when we’re in front of people or when we’re on this podcast, what would you encourage a parent, a family member, a spouse, a partner? What would you encourage them to say or to happen after they feel like they’ve said the wrong thing if that makes sense.

Mackenzie: Yeah, I mean, I think, especially if it’s someone that you have a close relationship with, if it’s someone that you love and that you care about their relationship is to like, check in with them, right? Um, just to see like, oh, hey, I said that and maybe I, maybe, I think it may have come off wrong. Like, what did you hear? Right. Um, or even just like owning up to like, hey, I said that, and I didn’t really mean that. Can I try it again? And so being able, and then being able to hear from the, the person in your life, like whether it’s a person in a larger body or whomever, right that comes from like a different, that may have different privileges than you do to just be able to sit and hear that what you said may have upset them.

Sam: Just making space for that. It’s like how did that land on you and being open to whatever the answer is. Being able to tolerate that. That’s, that’s the hard part. Wow. So, I’m curious, Mackenzie, there are so many body image movements that the media is reporting on. Let’s see if I can name them all. I feel like I’m on jeopardy. Hang on body acceptance, body neutrality, body positivity. What am I missing body liberation? Are there any other ones?

Ashley: Body respect? Is that one of them?

Sam: That sounds like it’s one, body respect. I think we just invented a body image on the side. So can we break these down? And I think there’s a lot of confusion especially because let’s not forget there are influencers out there who have used some of these terms, these movements and, and I think have completely misrepresented them. I know body positivity for instance, has been stolen, literally stolen. I mean companies steal it, you know, influencers steal it. So maybe let’s set the record straight here on All Bodies. All Foods., what are these movements, who do they belong to, and how do we use them in practice or how do you use them in practice? I think it is probably a more interesting question.

Mackenzie: Yeah, absolutely. So I am like an absolute huge history nerd. So I love talking about like the beginnings of, of body and, and really fat liberation movements and how that transformed into body accepted movements that we kind of see today. It’s really no surprise that the current like body positivity movement has lost a little of its origin story, like you said, having been kind of claimed by Instagram influencers but really the body positive movement was founded with the Fat Accepted Movements of the 1960’s. And so when I’m working with my clients, we spend a lot of time honestly talking about the difference between these movements and what it means for the individual. Specifically, when we’re talking about body image concerns or eating disorders with fat clients, it’s important to kind of tease apart what is like an individual experience and what is likely tied to like the culture that we exist in. So like for the individual, we are seeking oftentimes like body neutrality. So that’s where we’re headed, right? To be sort of body neutral. When we are talking about like what it means to exist in the group to desire body positivity because that’s a movement beyond just one person, right? That’s an activism effort. And so I see a lot of these as the difference between like what is perhaps activism and what is like individual work. So, um like I said, body positivity really started as an activist movement and, and still is an activist movement. Whereas perhaps body acceptance is going to fall with like an individual in the works that you’re doing um with your therapist, with your dietitian, with your whoever um like as an individual to just sort of be neutral about the body that you exist in.

Sam: Hm. That makes so much sense.

Ashley: That’s a really great perspective to look at that at the activism collective piece versus the individual, what is going on within my existence piece?

Sam: So, Mackenzie is, I’m some of our listeners might be wondering, is there a difference between body positivity and fat positivity? Are those terms interchangeable? Are there differences?

Mackenize: Totally. I will give this with a caveat to me, they do feel interchangeable, because like I said, body positivity was born of the Fat Liberation Movement.  That’s where it came from. I think if you’re talking to sort of the masses, though they would not necessarily put those two things together, but for me, they are born of the same sort of um sort of movement.

Ashley: And what are some of those pillars, Mackenzie? Like, what are some of the foundations of that body positivity and fat liberation movement?

Mackenzie: Yeah. So, I mean, that is going to look like noticing, focusing on weight discrimination, which is really where the movement was born in the 1960’s. So, one of the, the sort of founders of the body positivity movement of the Fat Liberation Movement um had found out that his wife was basically being discriminated against. And so, he organized what they called a fat-in. So, he had other fat folks join at like a particular place and sort of sit with um sit with everybody and they were like eating and just really existing in their bodies. And so like putting to be able to notice like weight discrimination um was really what that movement was kind of born of. And it is one of the pillars of, of that movement but it is like the idea of sort of fighting against uh what the cultural norm is currently, which is that there is a good or bad body and removing this idea that like, no, there’s just bodies.

Ashley: Yeah. And I even think the way that you’re explaining that is also kind of like sometimes when I think of body positivity or when my clients think of that, I think they think that they have to be in love with their body all day, every day. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit to that?

Mackenzie: Doesn’t that sound exhausting? So, and I think that to me sort of goes back to the like, body positivity versus like body neutral, right? Like once again, for my individual person that I’m working with like really just being neutral of the idea that some days I’m really going to like the body I exist in some days, I’m not going to like it at all. And then hopefully most days I’m waking up just being like, oh yeah, this works like, or even if it doesn’t work in the way it should, right? Like this is just a space that I exist in. And so that is the work with clients. It’s like, hey, for an individual, you do not have to wake up every day and love your body. We wouldn’t ask you to do that as like most things, right? Um Think of it as a relationship, right? Like some days you’re going to wake up and your partner is going to really annoy you, right? You still want to have a good relationship with them. Same thing with, with body, right? Like I don’t have to be in love with it um to still really participate even in the body positivity movement.

Ashley: That is so helpful.

Sam: I love that. So, this has just got me thinking, what are some ways Mackenzie, people can work on developing a better relationship with their body. Do you have any practical advice for our listeners out there? Because when you just said, oh, when some days we wake up and we’re like really annoyed with our body, I’m sure there’s so many people out there like, yes, tell me, tell me what to do what, what when that happens are there ways that you take care of yourself? Or ways you help your clients take care of themselves. Just curious.

Mackenzie: Yeah. Um, I think one of the things that I love doing specifically, um, is if I’m finding that I’m in one of those moods where it’s like, oh my God, I just don’t like nothing fits like it feels right on my body or whatever. Um, to just kind of stand in the mirror and do a body scan and to say just simply neutral things. I have red hair, I have blue eyes, my hair touches the top of my shoulders and really just go from like top to bottom. You don’t want to be positive or negative, right? Because it can bring you back to center. So, for those days that you’re not feeling great about it, you have a neutral thing that you can come to, right? People talk often times about like their stomach, their belly, right? If there’s days that like, I’m just feeling really disconnected from that part of myself to be able to look and say like, you know what, my stomach connects my upper half to my lower half and that’s all you can get out for the day. It is a neutral comment, right? Um And sometimes that’s just what you need to kind of pull to is like, how do I just observe what I have going on with neither positive nor negative kind of thoughts behind it.

Sam: Right. Well, this reminds me a lot of the exposure work we do with the UT. And it’s really about getting, well, part of it is about getting away from avoidance. I think the instinct is like if I’m not feeling good about my body, I’m just going to avoid it completely today. But what if we can approach it in a different way, in a neutral way and just be able to tolerate whatever sort of comes up and just practice that nonjudgmental thinking, which takes a little bit of extra effort when you’ve been judging your body your whole life.

Mackenzie: Yeah. And I think really tapping into like if I’m finding that something sort of continues to come up for me. Where am I hearing that messaging from? And sometimes just investigating like, oh whose voice am I hearing that in? Is it my voice? Is it my mom’s voice? Is it um you know, the chick I follow on Instagram’s voice like, who am I hearing this particular criticism in? And maybe how can I respond? Um It respond in that sort of way, right?

Sam: Who have I internalized, who’s living in my head? This is not me necessarily, this is someone who has taught me something and I’ve taken it in as my own that’s so powerful because it can feel like true. Your thoughts can feel so true. It’s like you have a thought about your body and it’s like, well, this is clearly the truth. It’s coming from my brain. It must be true.

Mackenzie: Exactly.

Ashley: I’m thinking about, um, those or, or just anyone really that maybe like so in that activity, I love that activity, Mackenzie and I think it’s incredible. I am just thinking of a number of people that might be fearful of even looking in the mirror. And so, and I know like, yes at Renfrew and with our Unified Treatment Model, we really want to target avoidance patterns and help shift those behaviors, right? And that just feels like such a scary step for somebody that might be having that experience. Do you have any, you know, pro tips, suggestions for somebody who’s kind of easing themselves into this experience?

Mackenzie: Yeah. One of the first things that I encourage my clients to do or really anyone that I’m sort of working with is as you are sort of starting into this journey of just like connecting with your body, right? So, working on that body image, is to clear out your social media of people who don’t make you feel good and then to follow people specifically who look like you, it helps to normalize your own body when you see other people existing in bodies like yours. And so, one of the first questions I always ask folks is, do you have other fat friends? And it’s really surprising how often times they don’t. And so being able to be with people, whether it’s through social media or friends that you have, who exist in bodies that look like yours. Um, even if you both are struggling in a moment, right. Like, it doesn’t mean you both have to, like, there’s no accountability but just being able to exceed that, like, people exist that look like me. Um, like, I think that is a wonderful sort of activity to just be sort of yeah, inundated with like my body.

Ashley: Mhm, that makes sense. And I have to tell you that I get all the good feels when I see Lizzo on Instagram, it just makes me so happy, right? Like, like hers is one of the accounts that I follow. Like that brings me so much joy and normalize all of the bodies, right? I love it.

Mackenzie: Absolutely. And even finding like one of my favorite things to do is I love fashion and so I will absolutely go find people who have like my similar body type that are fashion influencers because I promise they are out there. Even just to see like, oh that looks really cute on her. So, like perhaps like that would look really good on me, right? And so even that is sort of empowering because it’s like, okay, yeah, like look at this person being styled and like, you know, looking amazing in, in those, in that body that also looks like mine.

Ashley: Yes, that is wonderful.

Sam: Oh, I love that. I just heard a talk by Virgie Tovar and she was saying how important it is. It just reminds me of what you’re saying because you know, to not only follow people who look like you but follow people who look like you who are enjoying life, you know, loving life, loving their relationships, just loving all parts of their lives across different domains. How important that is because the media really doesn’t do a good job showing all body sizes having fun in life. Do you have thoughts about that, Mackenzie?

Ashley: That is such a good question.

Mackenzie: Yeah. I love that but because yeah, like, I think, I think being able to see someone in your body shape or your body size, living a life that really you, you either have or hope to have, right, that you’re working towards. It’s kind of like #goals if we’re talking about social media. And I think it’s important too to like kind of add on to that as well as to like follow folks who are bigger than you, right? Follow folks who are in larger bodies if you’re in like a straight size body or um but like there are plenty of amazing um larger fat activists that I think like is important to follow too because it helps to normalize that like these bodies exist in all types. And then I think too, like when we’re talking about media and media consumption. It’s finding those people who are, um, not just sort of typically feeling the, like, fat trope that we typically see, right. They, they are in funny roles and they’re like the funny side character or, um, you know, find like, um, trashy romance novels that have, you know, fat characters, the main character, they are out there. There are TV shows now that, like, are, are positioning, you know, fat character as the main character, where they get to experience romance and they get to experience like, you know, success in a career or whatever it might be. And so, finding those characters that you really identify with too in media, I think can be really empowering.

Ashley: I think just to touch on that, I think I saw an article the other day, isn’t Disney coming out, with a new character, I don’t know the movie, I don’t know anything, but she’s in a fat body and she’s not a villain because, you know, like so many of the other characters that they’ve had in the past that were in fat bodies were villains or, um kind of what you were saying they were unhappy or kind of just fit this stereotype, right? But like the heroine of their story now, um you know, is a character that exists in a fat body. I don’t know anything above that. I just happened to see that in a, in an article the other day.

Mackenzie: Yeah, I haven’t, I’ve seen that um advertised. I have not watched the trailer yet. But yeah, she’s, I think she’s a little, um, like ballet dancer. Um which I think is, is wonderful.

Ashley: It is. Right. Yeah. Wonderful.

Sam: Mackenzie. Who do you have some examples of accounts that people can follow of your favorite body positive, fat, positive activists.

Mackenzie: Yeah. So, I figured you would ask me this and my brain would go like totally blank because it always does. But my two, so probably my two favorites that I often give people, one of them is Aubrey Gordon, which is @yrfatfriend on Instagram. She’s also one of the co-hosts of Maintenance Phase, which is a phenomenal podcast about Wellness. She has written a couple of books that I think are really great too. So, Aubrey is wonderful and then there is a woman, her name is Danni (Adams) and I cannot think of her last name right now, but she is on Instagram as @amapoundcake. She is an amazing woman and a black woman in a fat body that is doing a lot of really cool activism work as well.

Sam: Wonderful. I know people are always looking for resources, whether it’s people to follow, podcast to listen to books, to read. Do you have any books that that you would recommend.

Mackenzie: Yeah. So, like I said, Aubrey Gordon, she’s also an author. Her most recent book, she has a new one coming out, but her most recent one is What We Don’t Talk About Ahen We Talk About Fat. That’s a wonderful one. And then uh oh my goodness, I have so many. I also have like a referral, uh Google Spreadsheet. Um I can link that to y’all. So, if you want to share with people that has all of the books, even like uh like I said, there’s plus size, um there’s fictional books that also have plus size characters that I have a list of. So, I’m happy to kind of send that over to y’all as well.

Sam: Oh, that would be great. I would love that. Yes. Yes.

Ashley: Mackenzie. If somebody wanted to follow you or connect with you, how are we able to do that?

Mackenzie: Yeah. Um So I’ve got some, some things coming up, but right now, Instagram, uh Instagram is probably the easiest way which is @coachmackenziefox. And then I am also launching a body image coaching business. And so, the website there will be Mbodied, which is “m” just the letter, mbodied-coaching.com. Um And so you can check me out both of those ways. I’ll have resources there for folks.

Ashley: We’ll definitely pop that up. On the information for the podcast.

Sam: What can, what can people expect from if they signed up for body coaching? What would that look like?

Mackenzie: Yeah. So it gives me, like I said, I’m a therapist by trade, but it gives me a little bit of the ability to sort of step outside of like a therapeutic office. And so with that, I’m hoping to help people as they’re navigating situations that might be difficult, um, as you’re working through like your own body liberation. Um, so if clients might need help prepping to go to like a doctor’s office and they’re in a fat body, like how can we prepare or do you need an advocate to kind of go with you and, and help advocate for yourself, um, or folks who are um, going shopping and like, they’re pretty new until like early recovery of like, what is it like to go into a store and try clothes on when you may be may or may not be the size that you once were? Um, yeah, and helping them advocate in those ways going out to, to dinner, um, which sometimes can be like very triggering for folks who are um, in larger bodies. And so like, how can you still have that experience and work through it, you know, work through that?

Sam: That would be so helpful to so many people, not only just having the emotional support, but also the skills I feel like advocacy skills are not taught enough about how to advocate for yourself in places where you experience weight stigma or discrimination and sort of like, tell me what to do, what do I do? And that’s so helpful to people to have those.

Mackenzie: I’ll add on to that too of like, you know, from an advocacy standpoint, if you are in a position of privilege, right to advocate for your friends and families or clients, that may not be in that position of power. So, like asking for what they might need or even anticipating some needs could make a world of difference. You know, if your friend tells you that the restaurant that you’re going to likely doesn’t have booths they’ll fit to be the one that asked to sit at a table instead. They are less likely to make assumptions about you, than your friend in a fat body. And so, advocacy work doesn’t mean going out and starting like a revolution or protest on your own. It can simply be the impact that you’re making with the privilege that you have for those people in your life that you, you love.

Sam: Exactly.

Ashley: Speaking of advocacy work, Mackenzie, I know you’ve kind of, you’ve been in this field for a while. What does your advocacy work look like? I, I also know you, you provide body image workshops, you know, things like that. But um yeah, what, what kind of does that look like for you.

Mackenzie: So, I think for my own life and for my own work, I kind of think of it as in like three different phases and that’s, Educate, Investigate, Advocate and we talked about the advocacy, but unlike the education piece, helping people, especially once again, if they’re not in fat bodies, seek out and listen to fat educators about the topic. The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance is a great website to start, The Association for Size Diversity, and Health is another great one, like we said, following fat content creators. One of the first things, like I said, I encourage my clients to do is to really follow people who look like you on social media who are existing in your size body and larger, because it helps create that sense of normalcy. And for me, that’s one of the things that I try to do with like putting myself out there and in the body that I exist in, whether that’s me working out and how does it look for a person in a fat body to work out? How does it like, what is it like to just exist in this body? And then for the investigate, I think that might be the most important one for like my sort of three pillars that I work with. And that’s investigating your own biases when it comes to different body types, you might love or be friends with folks in larger bodies. But if the idea of switching places for them with a day gives you like a certain reaction, there’s probably some bias. I think it’s important that people also recognize the privilege that they have in thin bodies, especially when it also comes in the form of other privileges of being white, cisgendered, able-bodied, because all of those things are really going to feed into sort of the privilege that you also have in your voice, right? So, I am in a fat body, but I am also a cisgendered, straight passing white woman. And so, with that allows me a lot of privilege to seek out. And I think for me, it’s important to, to do that education for people who perhaps may not be as listened to.

Ashley: I love that. So, you said, Educate, Advocate, Investigate or did I get backwards?

Mackenzie: Educate, Investigate, Advocate.

Ashley: Educate, Investigate, Advocate. I love it. Thank you.

Sam: Wonderful. This episode has had so many wonderful resources, so much, great information. Thank you so much Mackenzie and thank you so much to our listeners for joining. I really hope you enjoyed this episode with Mackenzie Fox. If you loved it, please support us by subscribing, rating, leaving a review and sharing with others. And if you want more, you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Our handle is @RenfrewCenter. For free education events, trainings, webinars, resources, and blogs head over to our website www.renfrewcenter.com And if you have any comments or questions, you’d like us to answer in a future episode, be sure to email them to: [email protected]. I hope you join us again next time.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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