Podcast Transcript

Episode 26: Art, Photography, and Experiential Work: A Discussion About One Way to Creatively Approach Body Image

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam!

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome, we would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Ashley: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of All Bodies. All Foods. Ashley and Sam are here with you today, and we are joined by another guest, Gina Graham. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in the suburbs of Chicago, who has specialized in outpatient treatment of eating disorders, body image, anxiety, depression, and general mental health for almost 20 years. Gina started out as a Clinical Case Manager at London Oaks Hospital in the early 2000s on the Eating Disorder Inpatient and Intensive Outpatient Unit. Gina is also a passionate photographer, focusing on portraiture of girls and women to empower and share unique portrayals of beauty through the art of photography. Gina has developed a unique approach to using portrait photography in therapy sessions to work on body acceptance, heal body image issues, and challenge cultural beliefs about beauty and perfection. Gina is also the author of Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World. When Gina is not working, she is hanging out with her family, watching her teen boys play soccer, traveling, walking her dog, and eating chocolate. Gina, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today!

Gina: Thank you! Thank you so much for having me, I’m really honored to have been asked to be a part of this great podcast you guys are doing. So, thank you.

Ashley: Yeah! So, we wanted to connect with you, Gina, and really, we want to talk about body image. We want to talk about how changing that conversation can change the world. And I think one of the biggest reasons we wanted to do this is because, as all three of us are clinicians on this show, we fully recognize that body image is not a one-time deal. It’s not, you know, I mean, the conversations about it are ever-flowing and ever-happening. And so, we just think it’s important to continue to honor it and to continue to talk about it, because our clients are still talking about it, our clients are still experiencing it, feeling it. So anyhow, I would love if you could kind of share a little bit of your background, how you got into this work, and how even you started focusing on healing our bodies through photography.

Gina: Yeah, absolutely! Well, I mean, I couldn’t agree with you more that body image is just this, like, you know, issue that just kind of follows us. And what’s interesting about body image, I think, is it— especially in kind of trying to figure out how to write about it, and talk about it, and have my work be, you know, focusing on body image is just how incredibly complex and layered it is. And even if we look at, like, some of the historical aspects of body image, I mean, it just really strikes me that, you know, even some things that I’m listening to very recently, like the last couple of weeks— how we’re trying to have these conversations, right? Like, what is body positivity? And is that, what are the pros and cons of that movement as it’s currently constructed in culture? And, you know, what is body acceptance, and what is body neutrality? And we’re kind of using a lot of these words and trying to figure out this language, and we’re having a lot of conversations, and I’m just so excited that we’re having these conversations. Because historically, they’re still very new conversations, you know. You know, when you look at, you know, kind of all of the layers in all of these things, you know, we’re only now, I think, really starting to truly and deeply question some of these things. And so, it’s a really exciting time to be in the field of working with the issues of body image. So, to answer your question of how I got started doing this work, like so many, you know, in our field I think, you know, I kind of had my own kind of lived personal experience. So, I grew up in the 80s and in the 90s when, you know, there was this boom of, like, “diet culture.” And it was all of a sudden, like, “it exploded,” and “pop culture exploded,” and “diet culture” and, you know, low fat diets, and all of these things. And so, I was very much a product of that generation. And, like so many young girls in particular, you know, when you start to look at that period where you’re going through like, you know, puberty, prepuberty, my body was really changing. And I for, a period of time, was living in a larger body that was trying to figure itself out, and trying to kind of acclimate to, you know, what my hormones were doing, how my body was changing. And so that was a really difficult time for me, and I had a lot of, you know, there was kind of some teasing, there was some bullying, there was some questions and concerns about my weight, and “What were we gonna do about it?” And so I kind of came to a lot of this honestly. And, you know, I talk a little bit, you know, in the book about my history with this. And when I was in college, I kind of had this wakeup call moment of like, “Hey, I don’t think I have a healthy relationship to exercise. I don’t think I have a healthy relationship to food. I’m starting to do things with food that I know are not in my best interest. And when I stop and think about it, I’ve never really felt comfortable living in my own skin.” So, it was a time for me to kind of start to go and do some of that work. And coming through that time, I just felt so passionate about how we really did need to kind of change the culture and the conversation a little bit because, you know, when you’re someone who spends a lot of time uncomfortable in your body, loathing your body, you know, creating all these rules, creating all these reasons why you’re not good enough, and then that starts to shift. You know, it does feel a little bit like, “Well, maybe this is the gift that other, you know, people can experience as well, and I’d like to do everything in my power to try to see if I can foster that in someone.” So, that’s when I, you know, kind of, I don’t know, floundered a little bit with trying to figure out what I was going to do in life after college, and had a few, you know, random dead ends, and then ultimately ended up going back and getting my degree, Masters in clinical social work. And then pretty quickly just dove into working specifically in the field of eating disorders.

Sam: Wow.

Ashley: That’s incredible!

Sam: In your work, Gina, your book specifically, your subjects in the book are telling a story. And they’re doing it not only with words, but the images, I mean, you’re taking pictures, portraits essentially. And I’m just curious, how did this idea come to you about adding in, incorporating photography? And how do you think it helps, people seeing an image of themselves essentially?

Gina: Well, I actually grew up loving the art of photography, and I never really kind of fully gave myself permission to kind of, you know, like jump into it, I think until later in my life, when I was really ready to kind of explore more creative and artistic sides of myself. You know, my kids were little, and I started to get more into photography, like, as an art form, right? And teaching myself, I’m totally self-taught as a portrait photographer. So, you know, as I was doing this work, I would find that, like, I was home learning these skills around, you know, photography, and getting so excited about the medium and art form of photography, and then going into the office and sitting with these girls and women who, to me had so many strengths, and so many gifts, and so many different parts of themselves. And one of the parts of ourselves is our physical being, our physical selves. And so obviously, in working with body image and eating disorder recovery, there’s always kind of a wrestling and a grappling with, you know, maybe someone needs to restore weight, and they’re trying to make sense of how to make peace and, you know, kind of this new body or, you know, “What does body acceptance look like? What does it look like to kind of start to make peace with your physical self?” And I just got really curious about like, well, you know, I’d always kind of used pictures, like, we would do timelines and we would kind of talk about different points in life and, “What did your body look like then? And how did you feel about it?” And I thought, “Well, I’m learning how to take pictures. You trust me, we know each other. What if I take pictures and then we talk about it in therapy?” So, it started very much just kind of organically with my own clients, to kind of start to say, “Hey, like, let’s really talk about what you’re seeing, and let’s see if we can figure out where you might be distorted? What are the things that you might need to look at in a different way? How can we reframe certain things?” And it kind of took off from there. What was interesting in the book, and doing the work for the book, was I never really set out to write, like, an eating disorder book, I never set out to even write a book about body image per se. I just really wanted an artistic way to, in a nutshell say that especially through the work that I’ve done up to this point in my career, I think that all of us as physical beings have our own innate and unique beauty. And culturally, we need to start to look at celebrating that, and maybe thinking differently about all of these topics, and thinking differently about, “What does it mean to be beautiful, and see ourselves as beautiful, and see others as being beautiful?” And I really just wanted to kind of create a project that encapsulated all of that.

Sam: Yeah.

Gina: So, of course, there is a little bit in the book about how to work on body image. And of course you can’t, you know, do a book of that nature without at least speaking to some of the things to be aware of in terms of eating disorder awareness and all those things. But it was really just always meant to be shining a spotlight on the different people that allowed me to photograph them, and just telling their stories, right? Because there’s a lot of through lines in all of our stories, culturally, you know, as girls and women. And I don’t want to single out, you know, just girls and women, because, you know, we all know in treating this illness that, you know, we’re not just seeing this in girls and women. You know, there are a lot of misconceptions about body image and who’s impacted by body image. But there is something to be said about growing up in our culture female and the messages that we get. And I just wanted to kind of allow it to be a place for people to share their stories, and then for the reader to say, “What do I think about that? How do I relate to that? Have I experienced anything like that before? What does this mean for me in my life and my relationship to my body?” So that’s really how it was always sort of meant to be.

Sam: Yeah. You know, what comes up for me is, as a clinician in the eating disorder field for so long, pictures are— can be so triggering for folks in recovery. I can’t tell you how many sessions I’ve had where clients are like, “I saw a picture of myself and it just about drove me to relapse,” or “I had a great weekend, but someone was taking pictures and I couldn’t even bring myself to be in the picture, so I volunteered to take the picture.” And I’m just curious, you know, when you’re taking these portraits and showing these folks what they look like, I mean, you’re really trying to capture the beauty that you see, the beauty that is there. Do they see themselves differently?

Gina: So, my experience has been, yes, they do. But it’s very interesting, and sometimes it kind of takes a minute. And I really appreciate what you’re saying because I think, you know, I’d always used images to say like, “Oh, is that, you know, is that triggering for you? OK. Then let’s trigger it here in therapy and talk about it.”

Sam: Yeah.

Gina: Like, this is exposures here, you know, we’re talking about, “Let’s sit and look at this, like, you don’t like yourself in your homecoming dress with your friends. Let’s, like, hash that out in session.” So, I was always kind of doing that, and what’s different about this and been really interesting is, we kind of create the session built around other aspects that tie into their identity. So, I had one client who loved to be out in nature, so I captured her, you know, like near a pond with her feet dangling in the water. And I have one client who, you know, had like this amazing tennis shoe collection. I mean, we really try to kind of capture parts of their unique personality, so that I can always pull back to, “Yes, you’re a physical being and we are trying to navigate your relationship to that, but it does go deeper than that, and can you see yourself beyond that exterior physical layer?” So that’s ultimately where we do want to try to land. What’s interesting is, you know, when people— it’s fascinating to me as a clinician who’s worked in this field, when people can kind of spot their distortion in session through looking at these images. It’s like, “That’s actually a thing that, a part about my body that I like,” or “I actually think that image looks really pretty,” you know. So obviously, you know, there’s a wide range of experiences that people have in doing this session, type of session with me. And sometimes we do have to work through like, “Why is this hard for you to look at? What are you reacting to in a negative way?” And there have been times where we’ve had to very slowly go through the images together. But there have been more sessions than not where, you know, clients are kind of looking through them and seeing themselves in a different way than I think they were expecting to see themselves. And we’re talking about, in the context of all the things we’ve been working on in therapy regarding body image. So, it all kind of starts to tie together. And part of why I wanted to double down on using imagery too is, like, we are the first time in history having a moment where we’ve never been bombarded with the level of imagery that we are being bombarded with now. Like, psychologically it’s fascinating, right? Like, we’ve never before in the history of time had this many images hitting our eyeballs in one day. And it’s not going anywhere. So, all of our clients,, and women and girls, and anyone really who is struggling with, “How do I look,” is going to have to navigate this culture where we do have social media, people are taking pictures constantly on their phones and sharing them, and passing them around. Like, you know, we can’t necessarily, you know, expect that we’re gonna kind of say like, “Well, hey, you know, I’m just not ever going to get in a picture.” So it’s just like anything with our clients, you know, we want to lead them to exposing themselves to where they’re struggling, so that hopefully they can work through it and then kind of assimilate it into a healthier way of seeing themselves in their recovery.

Sam: Mhm.

Ashley: I’m kind of thinking of this idea of when someone can see themselves in that photo, and they can process with you and share their story, I’m curious if then they feel, like, if this little bit of ego strength is maybe building for them, and they get to take ownership of this photo and of their story. And I’m reminded, I was a part of a project a few years ago, it’s called Beautiful Strength, and it’s kind of a nationwide traveling project. And the woman that runs it travels around and takes portraits, also, of people. They’re not, you know, clients obviously. But she has them write their stories or whatever words they need to say on the image. So, the image gets printed, they write it on there. And then, you know, they can take it with them, she can keep it in the book, or whatever. And I engaged in one of the sessions when it was in Nashville. And I remember I went to this, like, really cool, you know, like a warehouse, and they had the whole thing set up, and all the lights and all the cameras and. And I remember engaging in a pose that, I felt so powerful, but I will also tell you, I was very— it felt very vulnerable for me. I had, you know, had my hands on my head and I was, like, striking a pose, and I did feel powerful, but I felt vulnerable as well. But I remember the words that I wrote on the photo, and I still, it is still so impactful to me. It means so much to me because it reminds me that, like, I can have ownership essentially over my being and over my story. And so, I don’t know what to say, and if you want to speak to that for your clients, but I just imagine some of it can be so challenging. And like you were mentioning, you know, it is exposure, right? And we’re kind of leaning into the cultural sensation of seeing these images everywhere. And also on the flip side, you know, how powerful can that be for your clients to experience this and to see their images?

Gina: Yeah, there have been some really impactful, powerful moments that I wasn’t even prepared for, you know. And it’s been beautiful to see, I really appreciate what you’re saying about, like, being in this moment where it feels very vulnerable and you feel very exposed and uncomfortable, because you’re, like, on the other side of someone’s lens, and they’re asking you to do things. And especially when you’re already jjust, like, you wake up uncomfortable in your own skin. That’s a big ask, right? But what is really cool is when you can get someone to say, after a session, you know, as they’re leaving like, “That was fun,” or “That felt really good.” You know, the number of times I’ve heard people say like, “I feel so powerful!” Or “That felt great!” Or a lot of times what I get is like, “That wasn’t nearly as bad or scary as I thought it was gonna be, that was kind of fun. I feel really good!” And then sometimes I’ll hear feedback from parents like, “My kiddo came home and, like, I haven’t seen them smiling like that in a while. I haven’t seen them so excited.” So, something happened before they even saw the images that I’m not even sure I can explain. And then what happens where, you know, even if it takes them a minute to be like, “Oh, that’s how my body looks. Like, when you’re not filtering it, and tweaking it, and photoshopping it, like, that’s how my body looks?” Right? Like, we have those moments because we’re so accustomed to seeing images of bodies and faces that are not grounded in reality. So, most of us, even if we don’t have body image issues that are clinical and drive eating started behavior, you know, most of us are gonna be like, “Oh, that’s what I look like?” Because that’s not, we’re not used to seeing—like, the phenomenon of seeing real women in media and advertising and imagery is new, right? So, when you can kind of work through that and then come back and say, “OK, let’s talk about that. Can you get back to the place where you were feeling how you were feeling? Because that’s a feeling, right? That’s not about how you look, that’s about how you felt in your body.” So that’s where we kind of start to talk about, “What were you doing? What were you thinking? How else— what other areas in your life can you capture that feeling? Where you feel empowered, you feel proud, you feel strong. You feel excited that you did something that was hard or uncomfortable. What are those experiences in your life, and can you go out and seek more of that to get that feeling? Because you’re not necessarily going to get that feeling in a deeply meaningful way just based on how you look, right? And if you do get that feeling just based on how you look, that’s a really tenuous way to feel good about yourself, because our bodies do change, and we age. And all of these things happen where, you know, that better not be the only area of your life where you can capture that feeling.

Sam: Yeah. That’s— oh yeah, that’s such a good point. I also really love the concept of incorporating parts of the identity in the portrait. I think that’s so powerful because, this isn’t about going to you as a photographer and, you know, saying, “I wanna look beautiful, take a picture of me so I can see myself differently.” It’s not about that. It’s about being fully seen, and being present with the emotional experience of putting yourself out there. And also challenging the predictions you’re gonna have about it. You know, it’s like this thought that it’s gonna be too scary or, you know, “I don’t have enough confidence to do this.” And then after it’s done, to say to yourself, “I did that,” you know. And that can really build confidence.

Gina: Mhm, yeah. It’s a very collaborative process, right? It’s like, “What outfits do you want to wear, and what do you wanna bring, and how do you wanna capture you?” And I really, you know, like, it’s interesting because I think that fashion, and makeup, and all of that stuff, it— you know, there’s a couple of different ways we can look at that, right? And, you know, I definitely don’t set this up like, “OK, it’s like glamour shots where you’re gonna come in, and you’re gonna get hair and makeup, and you’re gonna, like, not recognize yourself.” Like, I feel pretty strongly that people feel like, “This is my natural self.”

Sam: Right, right.

Gina: Like, that’s what we’re trying to kind of get at here, you know? So, I think that’s always a part of the experience too, to kind of pull back and say, like, “Who are you outside of how you physically look and how do we connect all those dots in this gallery for you?” So that you have something to take away and say, “Yes, this is how I look, but it’s more than how I look. It’s who I really am.”

Sam: I love that.

Ashley: Kind of adding on to that, it’s— “This is who I really am.” I’m curious, are there themes that you’ve found throughout this work, maybe clinically speaking, or similar things that some of your clients have experienced when doing this?

Gina: I think the— that’s a good question. I think, you know, one of the big themes is, I think, just that people are surprised with how they feel in having done it. Surprised in a good way, you know. I do think that they feel, you know, a little more empowered, I think that they see the images differently than they would have expected to see them themselves. You know, what I will say is, it can be a really powerful experience and tool and reminder, but just like so many of the things that we do clinically, it’s kind of, like, one tool and one piece of something that, you know, can either continue to be used as a tool or a reminder, or sometimes can kind of lose its kind of impact over time, again as we go back out into culture with the things that we’re struggling with, right? So, you know, I do always kind of remind people, you know, you have these images, so circle back to them and, you know, use this as a tool because, you know, the forces that are coming at all of us in our culture about our appearance, and our bodies, and dieting, and weight loss, are so strong that, you know, it takes a lot of work to, you know, just continue to try to overcome them.

Sam: Oh, absolutely. And we can’t have a talk about body image without talking about all the systemic issues that contribute to it. Weight stigma, anti-fat biases. And I think it’s important to acknowledge that, that we’re up against a lot and, you know, “It’s not your fault that you’re feeling this way, of course you’re feeling this way.”

Gina: Yeah.

Sam: Right, right.

Gina: I think a lot of the work that I try to do, you know, and I hope to kind of steer clients toward, is getting angry about that, right? Getting vocal about that, and calling that out for what it is, right? I mean, I, you know, will present clients a lot in session with a lot of data to support the machine that is behind all of this messaging for women, right? Whether that’s, you know, kind of historically living in a patriarchal culture or living in a culture that is designed to have us keep clicking on things and have our eyeballs continue to engage with social media. Even just kind of sharing with them some of the little bits and pieces of information that I’ve picked up along the way. You know, if you were to kind of really stop and question critically, you know, a lot of the things that are behind the messaging it’s ultimately to sell us something, right? I mean, if you were to add up like the diet industry, the fashion industry, the wellness industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, the beauty industry. If you were to add all of that up, it equals essentially like, you know, like half a trillion dollars, right?

Sam: Yeah.

Gina: So, you’re talking about billions upon billions of dollars that, you know, companies and entities are making by spoon feeding us all of these insecurities and these messages. And ultimately, you know, when we sit and we do this work, what I try to kind of, you know, guide people towards is, “How do you feel about that? And how do you like— let’s take a step back and look at what culture is saying and doing right now, and is that something you actually want to be a part of?” Because I think in a lot of ways, if we’re not critically thinking about that, we’re just kind of swimming around in the water, not even knowing that it’s in the water, right? So that’s a part of the messaging of the book too, is to say, “Hey, like, aren’t we all kind of, you know, are we all kind of aware of this? And how are we talking about this? And how are we feeling about this?” You know? And again, it’s all very new kind of conversations that we’re having. So, it’s kind of interesting to see where it goes from here.

Ashley: Well, that was my question with— unfortunately, with diet culture being so mainstream, if you will, the cosmetic industry, all of this just being thrown at us all day, when you have these conversations with the people that you’re working with, do you ever get pushback? Does it seem like it’s hard to let go of that messaging because it’s inundated? We’re, I mean, I just feel like we’re… I have a daughter and she’s 18 months right now, and I’m like, even, you know, even things in the store are pink and purple and you know, the messaging that the images printed are, like, unicorns and butterflies and rainbows. And sure, all of that is adorable, but I just feel like the messaging is just ingrained in us. So, yeah, I’m curious about that.

Gina: Yeah, I mean, I definitely do. I think, you know, the teens have a little bit of a harder time with it. You know, especially like the tweens. I think because, you know, especially too where they’re at from, you know, a brain development standpoint and, you know, capacity for abstract thinking, and I think they have a little bit of a harder time to kind of step outside and externalize it and say like, “Hey, you know, how do I actually think about this and feel about it?” And just the pressures for them to fit in are just so incredibly intense. You know, my experience in looking at this across the lifespan is that, you know, when you kind of have that early teen or teenage development, you’ve got all of those really primitive forces that are kind of impacting, you know, behavior and brain activity too. Right. So, like, “What’s everybody doing,” and “Do I fit in?” And all of that is so primitive and through our hard wiring. And I’ll actually share that a lot with teenagers too. Like I will kind of, you know, break down for them, like, “Your brain actually is designed to think this way for survival. But let’s look at how it’s tripping you up when you go to school and you compare yourself to the girls in the locker room,” right? So I really do try to educate them a little bit. But what’s interesting is, you know, when you kind of look at it across the life span, and I think by the time, you know, you’re working with, like, you know, young adult women or new moms who are trying to manage, you know, like, their changing bodies with giving birth and postpartum. And certainly, you know, we know that there’s an incredible amount of pressure for women, even all the way through middle age, to still have this, you know, certain level of fitness or certain body type, in spite of the fact that our bodies are aging, and changing, and there’s a lot of forces that we can’t control. But I do think that, you know, once we kind of start to go through the life span, there can be a little bit of this sense, I’ve experienced, of women being kind of tired of it, you know? And feeling like it’s easier for them to say, like, “Maybe I don’t wanna live this way, like, maybe that would feel better to me. Maybe I could get on board with that,” right? But for sure the tweens and the teens, it’s a little bit harder. You know, they’re still very much deeply, deeply ingrained in culture and needing to fit in and have their, you know, have themselves kind of fit where they think they need to fit.

Ashley: I think that that’s pretty important for actually family members to hear as they’re working on supporting, you know, their teens and their loved ones, like, developmentally and culturally, it’s kind of normal to be in that place, that place of comparison for them. Doesn’t make it easy, but it is kind of a normal place, that they’re continuously looking to others, and right, and just comparing themselves and seeing where they fit in.

Sam: Yeah. It made me think about also how hard it can be for teens and tweens if a parent or a caregiver is also stuck in diet culture. Or a parent who’s linking “health” and “weight” together. And then you have these teens who think, “Well, I want to be healthy, and to be healthy I have to look this way.” And there’s a lot of unlearning that needs to happen, not only for this client but for the whole family system. And I was wondering, I mean, do you work with families with the portraits and the therapy that you do? How do you sort of incorporate the family members?

Gina: Yeah, I mean, I definitely have always traditionally and historically included family members, specifically when we’re talking about, you know, certain aspects of recovery and restoration of health, right? I don’t know about you guys, but I feel like, especially as a mom, like, some of the most heartbreaking moments I have in my office are when I’m sitting with a family and maybe mom is kind of really… it’s hitting her full force how much she’s been impacted by diet culture. And like, she’s just really struggling to understand, “OK, the things, some of the reasons why we’re here, it’s not my fault.” You know, it’s not that simplistic and I really try to educate families on, you know, the genetic and, you know, biological predisposition of this disease, and all of these things. But, you know, that culturally, you know, so many family members do really still struggle with that. And, you know, again, like, it’s just this recent, like, now cultural moment where girls are, like, educating their parents about like, “No, that’s not what we say about this person’s body.” And, “I think that’s admirable that that woman is wearing this even though she has this body type.” You know, so it really is this hard, incredibly difficult conversation to have. And, you know, even in the book, I, you know, was just kind of highlighting different vignettes of stories of, you know, girls and women who had picked up a lot of their insecurities about their bodies, unfortunately, by what was being talked about or modeled at home. So, I do think those conversations are important to have. My experience is, not all family members can have those conversations and then necessarily, you know, always have the most constructive outcomes. So, in those moments, sometimes, you know, I do pull back and just try to work, you know, with the person that’s in front of me who is trying to look at their relationship to weight and their bodies in a different way, and steer them towards empowering them. Like, “Hey, there’s a lot of different things that you might not always agree with your family or your parents on, or culture, and this just might be one of those things. What choices are you gonna make with your relationship with your body?”

Sam: Right, right. To empower them. To say that, “I guess that works for mom, but that’s not gonna work for me.”

Ashley: I think it’s so important because that speaks to just the messaging. I mean, just all of the different avenues with which we receive these messages. And differentiating from mom, from parents, can be really, really scary. And sometimes can even feel, you know, like we’re doing something bad, right? Like, and so… helping them, helping them with language, helping them see that there can be different paths out there. I just think that that’s beautiful.

Gina: Yeah, yeah. And like, so, you know, I mean, as we all know too, you know, when you work in this field clinically, like, it’s just such an important developmental task at that stage, right? It’s like, the separation, and the individuation, and you know, you’re worth the differentiation. It’s like, you know, “How do you kind of start to make decisions about how you’re gonna think and feel about, you know, your relationship to food.” It’s just it, it can be, I think for teens especially, sometimes they can kind of start to get excited when you give them permission. Like, “You’re allowed to have your own path! Your own journey! Your own way in the world!” Like, “That’s actually what you’re supposed to be questioning, and wrestling, with and deciding. And isn’t that cool that you can do that now?” You know, so yeah.

Ashley: Sometimes differentiating feels real good. “I wanna do this.” It does feel powerful.

Gina: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley: Yeah. Well, I have a quote, Gina, from the book, from Catherine who’s 31. And you quote her saying:

“My body image issues can still be extreme. Some days I feel attractive, some days I have intense body dysmorphia. There can be days of intense self-loathing that are terrible, overwhelming, and really hard. Changing my perspective and self-talk can help, but it is a struggle, and it’s hard to find the middle ground of acceptance.”

Ashley: And so, I was just curious, can you speak to this? Like, we’ve talked about how sometimes this can leave us feeling, like, very empowered, and even in that moment, you know, they can leave feeling empowered. And we’ve also discussed that working on the self is not a linear or one time process. So I’m just curious, yeah, how can you speak to this, and how do you work with somebody that might leave one day, you know, feeling ready to go and ready to change and then come back the next day, and just maybe feel defeated, depleted, and experience that body dysmorphia again.

Gina: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it’s always such a tricky thing, you know. I think that, again, kind of going back to this idea that, you know, we are all just up against such an incredible force in the culture that it’s understandable that, you know, even if we can find some moments with some glimmers of empowerment or feeling, you know, more positive about our body, that there are just gonna be some days where it just doesn’t click, you know. I think sometimes really just kind of leading clients to, “OK, when you have those days, let’s be a little bit of an investigator. Let’s first of all see, like, what else is going on in your life, you know? What’s really subtle about the messaging from culture is, at least I think that this is the message we get from diet culture, right, which is like, “Well, if you just lose weight and look this way or that way, you will feel happy, and your life will be perfect, and you will feel amazing, and essentially you won’t have any problems!”

Ashley: Right.

Gina: Right? I mean, that’s what a lot of the messaging leads us too. And so a lot of times what, you know, I kind of try to try to talk to clients to understand is, “Hey, if you’re having a fight with your boyfriend, or you have someone that you love that has a health problem, which is an easier problem for you to solve: those things, or the fact that you feel like you need to lose 10 pounds?” Because I’m guessing, we all, at the drop of a hat, could list off the things that we could do tomorrow to go on that journey to lose 10 pounds. And so, when the mess is like, “Be at your lowest body weight, be the fittest you can be. You know, you will have all of this happiness and everything, you know, will feel good in your life.” It’s very insidious because we kind of stop realizing, like, there are problems in our life that we can’t necessarily solve, and that is life. So, when we come up against that, do we stay in our feelings? Do we process that? Do we seek out support and coping? Or do we get diverted and distracted with something that maybe isn’t even actually a problem, but because we think we have a solution, it’s very enticing for us to go focus there, right? So, a lot of times when clients come to me like, “All of a sudden out of the blue, I’m having really terrible body image.” I’m like, “Well, what’s happening in your life?” And nine times out of 10, they’re like, “I’m stressed, I’m worried about this, this is going on,” and they generally are problems that they don’t have a ready solution for. So even sometimes just pointing them back to that, you know. But I think when we all live in this culture, as our bodies change and we’re aging, there is going to need to be this kind of reconciliation that, like, you know, the way that it’s all set up, it’s not set up for us to wake up every day and be like, “I feel amazing in my natural, organic myself.” So, what do we do on those days? We all have those days, you know. And to debunk the myth that, you know, some people don’t, I mean, you know, eating disorder clinicians have those days, supermodels have those days, famous actresses have those days, everyone has those days. So, is it that our bodies and the way we look is the problem, or is it this incredibly idealistic, perfectionistic standard that is the problem, and we just happen to be measuring ourselves against that on that day, and we need to continue to try to stop doing that?

Sam: Exactly.

Ashley: Right. You know, I think it’s important that you said that, because I think for those listening to us today, I think it’s important for them to hear that they don’t live on an island by themselves. That, exactly what you said, we all experience those questions and the messaging that begs us to ask those questions.

Sam: You know, you do so much for others around body work and body image. And with that being said, how do you, Gina, as a clinician, a mom, a photographer, how do you show up for yourself in the realm of body image?

Gina: Yeah. That’s something that, you know… It’s interesting, I think, working in this field, because I’ve always felt very strongly that if I don’t try to walk the walk, I really don’t have any business talking the talk. So, you know, even though I got into this field because of my own personal struggles, I made a commitment very early on, that if I can’t try to practice some of these things myself, I need to take a break, right? And so, you know, I’ve really over the years tried to hone different things that help me to navigate a positive relationship with my body. I am always trying to move in some way that feels good and nourishing. So, I’ve circled back to yoga, I’ve circled back to swimming. For me, my “why” with movement is not about controlling or changing my body, but it’s about helping me regulate my sleep and my, you know, all of my body’s internal systems, and it’s an incredible stress relief for me. You know, it’s been interesting, I am about to turn 47 and, you know, I’m starting to be at that stage of life where my body is changing, my hormones are changing in some ways. It’s almost kind of reminiscent of when I was going through puberty, and my body was changing and there wasn’t a lot I could do about it. And I think unfortunately, there’s a lot of strong messaging for women, you know, my age, I’ll speak for myself, that’s all about, like, fighting the aging process, and staying fit, and staying toned and healthy. And I definitely always want to be healthy, and that includes sleep, and nourishment, and stress management, and all of those things. But it’s been really interesting to kind of be at this stage of life where there’s very specific messaging around fighting all of that, right? And so, you know, I do some of my own work in terms of just, you know, being aware of, like, “Hey, you know, your skin is changing, your body is changing.” You know, I’ve been very open with some of my social media posts and the things that I’ve written about, how after the pandemic and, you know, the siege of life, like, my body’s changed size. I’ve had to buy bigger pants. Like, it’s OK, you know. I’m gonna still show up and take care of myself. But right now I’m trying to, you know, be in a meaningful and hopefully helpful career. I’m raising teenagers. I’m kind of in that generational moment where, you know, I have other family members that are also aging and getting older. Like, there are some days where I’m just trying to get enough sleep and, like, survive the day. So, to put this pressure on myself, that I need to be like ultra-fit and,, like fighting aging and looking amazing, is just like, it’s just so far down the list of priorities. I don’t have the bandwidth for it, you know. And so of course, I take care of my skin, I like to, you know, I like to think about, “What am I gonna wear,” and all of these things. But it’s keeping a perspective and a balance that, you know, works for me. And I do have to, you know, at times, work at it. I, you know, I do sometimes put myself, you know, on the receiving end of my own lens, right? So, I will do some self-portraiture, and I will challenge myself to be like, “How do I react when I see photos of myself? What happens for me if I’m seeing myself at this angle, in this lighting, and I don’t like the way that that looks? What do I do with that image? What do I do with these feelings?” Are there images that I’ve taken, and I can say, “I’m proud to have that image. That was me at 46. That was me with my kids. That was me with my new puppy.” Even if I don’t like the way my skin looks or my body looks, is there something I can retain about the moment, or the image, or the stage of my life that is very meaningful for me, right? So, it’s really just kind of trying to always be practicing what I’m preaching and, you know, I’m a woman living in our culture, just like everyone else. All the same messages are bombarding me as well. But, you know, I do really try to practice what I preach when I can, as much as I can.

Ashley: Well, Gina, thank you so much for being here with us today! We’ve really enjoyed hearing all about the work that you do, your book, and we’re just really appreciative that you’re out there advocating with us in this process. So, thank you again!

Sam: Thank you for listening to All Bodies. All Foods. We hope you enjoyed this episode with Gina, on portraiture and body image. You can support us by subscribing, rating, leaving a review, sharing with others. And if you want more, you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok, our handle is at @RenfrewCenter. For free education, events, trainings, webinars, resources and blogs, head over to our website www.RenfewCenter.com. Any comments or questions you’d like us to answer in a future episode, be sure to email them to [email protected]. Hope you join us next time on All Bodies. All Foods.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

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