Podcast Transcript

Episode 25: What’s relationship got to do with it? A Discussion of Attachment Theory and Eating Disorders

[Bouncy theme music plays.]

Sam: Hey, I’m Sam!

Ashley: Hi, I’m Ashley and you’re listening to All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders. We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.

Sam: We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome, we would love for you to join us on this journey. Let’s learn together.

Ashley: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of All Bodies. All Foods. Ashley and Sam are here, and today we have two guests with us. Woohoo! We’re going to be talking about attachment theory and eating disorders. And so, we’re really excited about this, we really feel like this can inform us from a professional level, this can inform us from, for those of us working with people that we know and love with eating disorders. We just really think that this episode is gonna be pretty incredible for all of us. So, I’m gonna get started and share with you some information about our guests, Kathryn Garland and Vanessa Scaringi. So, Kathryn Garland, LCSW-S, is a licensed clinical social worker and supervisor in Texas, Massachusetts, and New York. Kathryn spent her early career and completed postgraduate training in psychoanalytic therapy in New York City. She incorporates relational and intuitive methods into her work with clients, and has specialized in eating disorders over the last decade. Her experience includes working with LGBTQIA+ teens in the New York City foster care system, community mental health clinics, as well as a primary therapist and IOP program coordinator at an eating disorder treatment center. Kathryn is currently a field instructor for Boston University School of Social Work and co-owns a group practice called Calm Counseling in Austin, Texas. And then our next guest, Vanessa. Vanessa ScaringI is a licensed psychologist and certified eating disorder specialist supervisor. Vanessa co-owns a group therapy practice called Calm Counseling, where she works with adolescents, young adults, and adult populations. Vanessa has dedicated much of her career to working with the eating disorder field, and she is a relational psychologist who strives to understand the context of one’s eating disorder. By facilitating insight, Vanessa works with her clients to identify patterns and behaviors that interfere with living the life they want to live. Vanessa also strives to create a sense of hope in her clients, and she has found that this is an important part of the change process. So, Vanessa and Kathryn, thank you both so much for joining us today!

Kathryn: Thanks for having us. Sorry we made you give such a long introduction.

Vanessa: Very long.

Kathryn: I know. I’m like… the long and the short of it is we work together.

Ashley: Yeah, I actually really enjoy reading people’s bios because I think, like, it just, it helps, you know, everybody understand your context and where you’re coming from. So, thank you for sharing such rich information with us. So, let’s go ahead and jump in you all. I’m curious, because of today’s episode, we’re gonna be talking about attachment theory. We’re gonna be talking about the styles, the eating disorders. For those of us that are listening, really, that might not have any idea of what attachment theory is, can you first just kind of give us an overview of this and why it’s important to discuss?

Kathryn: Sure. Attachment theory is essentially an analysis of kind of how in early childhood children learn to keep proximity to their caregivers. This can sometimes result from caregivers needing a lot of space, and kids kind of learning how to make that space with them to stay connected. Or maybe needing to stay very close and have that more anxious relationship with an early caregiver. And we can go into all of that, but the overall idea being, those early relationships really define how we learn to be in the world with people. And it also defines our relationships with our bodies, and food, and ourselves.

Sam: Wow. I always sort of say in therapy, you know, I’m a psychologist, as well as my clients, I talk about how your relationship with your caretaker sort of sets the foundation for your relationships, your friendships, with your partner or your colleagues, whoever it may be. But this is fascinating that it also can extend to food and maybe your own body, and other sort of attachments.

Vanessa: Yeah. Absolutely.

Kathryn: Maybe to the world.

Vanessa: To the world, yeah, to the world, it’s all interconnected. Yeah, I mean, I think about, you know, when there was, if there is secure attachment, there’s stability, there’s always sort of knowing that, “No matter what, it’ll be okay.” And I think that that trust does lend itself to how we learn to engage with our bodies, listening to our bodies, and food and, you know, and being able to just sort of know that we can trust our bodies, trust our caregiver, trust people to show up for us. So, there is a lot of interconnectedness and a lot of symbolism, too. It’s super related.

Sam: That makes a lot of sense. It’s really about trust, you know, who can you trust and what can you trust.

Kathryn: And, “Can you trust that it’s okay to make mistakes and be imperfect,” is a huge piece of that.

Sam: Maybe, could we go through the different attachment styles? Because I know, you know, I’m on social media a lot, I’m a mental health content creator on there. And attachment styles, I mean, it is like a hot topic. I mean, people are trying to figure out, “What’s my attachment style?” Like, “What are the signs that I’m securely attached or I’m avoidant?” But maybe we can go through them, and maybe, could we talk— I’m hoping we can talk a little bit about, like, what are the signs? How do you sort of know which style you might fall under? Or is that even something we should be doing on our own, or should we have a therapist doing that?

Vanessa: Yeah, Kate, do you wanna tell the styles or.. I can kind of do a quick and dirty of the, what they are. So we always talk about secure attachment being, Kate says, a gold standard. You know, that’s when you… the Strange experiments where they sort of started to outline these styles. And that was, they would put a little kid in a room and the caregiver would be there or not be there, and then a stranger would show up, and how the kid would respond. So, a securely attached kiddo would kind of look around being like, “This is a little weird, but if I can see my caregiver, I’m OK.” And then it can kind of go away from there. Insecure attachment styles are anxious attachment. So, kind of getting a little worked up when the caregiver isn’t there. And we can kind of go through some of in the context of proximity as well. Avoidant attachment is when a kiddo would just sort of sort of not care. Like, the caregiver would come back and they would sort of seem indifferent. And then disorganized also emerges as sort of a mix of those, so really needing the caregiver, but then not needing. And we see a lot of that, with that overlap, with eating disorders. Then there’s such connection there with wanting and having and not allowing yourself, and attachment.

Kathryn: Mhm. And I think it’s… I think about this a lot, Vanessa and I talk about that attachment style is kind of getting… there is sort of a pop culture kind of— it’s like a horoscope for like, you know, “This is the kind of person that I am,” right?

Sam: Right.

Kathryn: As though it were, you know, that predictable or definable.

Vanessa: One and done.

Kathryn: Yes, because we’re all so complex. I think within a given week, I’ve got an avoidant attachment style with my partner, and an anxious attachment style with my kids, and, you know, whatever, disorganized with my mother. But, like, that it can be, obviously, much more fixed and certain, but I think we can all relate to these feelings that come up in relationships. And there’s a lot of time spent looking at those insecure attachment styles, which they do often result in needing to do a lot of emotional regulation. And we see that a lot in working with eating disorders, that eating disorders are such a quick and easy way to help to emotionally regulate when there is a severe insecure attachment issue. But even with secure attachment, there’s a lot of room for imperfection, and the difficulties of staying close to another person. So there’s lots to explore in there. And I would just say, we try to keep it pretty fluid in terms of, like, not getting too prescriptive or putting someone, slapping a label on them or saying “This is definitely who you are.”

Sam: I think that’s so important, yeah.

Ashley: I do too. That sounds really important to me because often, if a label is put on someone, you know, they might hold that and not maybe fully understand that change can occur or that growth can occur. And so, it honestly, it was even kind of just nice to hear from you, Kathryn, when you mentioned that, like, you could have multiple attachment styles with multiple people. Or like you, you might be, you know, feeling disorganized in one relationship, anxious in another, secure in another. I mean, I just think that that does speak to the complexity of who we are as individuals.

Kathryn: Yeah, unfortunately, and fortunately, right? It’s good to know that we’re not just stuck with one particular attachment style for life and that we can build those more secure attachments with the folks that make us feel those resilient and connective feelings. And I’m, you know, I’m sort of semi joking that I’m all over the map, I guess that says a lot about who I am. But I do think that there’s, you know, that’s why it’s so understandable, it’s so relatable that people can really see themselves in those different ways of being with different people. So, we just like to get curious about that with food behaviors because it is kind of, it’s a way, it’s a language to use, right, around being full or not wanting to be full, and how much of an attachment style that’s more anxious would result in, “I just can’t trust that I’m ever gonna feel full so I need to fill up on this food and this moment,” or “I want to disavow those feelings and keep myself from being full because I don’t trust that I ever will be,” that this is just kind of a nice way to open up a conversation with clients around their relationship with food and how it can kind of mimic their relationships in general.

Ashley: That is so fascinating.

Sam: That is fascinating.

Ashley: I’m thinking, like, somebody experiencing a lot of diet culture and, like, perhaps disorganized attachment, like, “Sometimes I have a great relationship, or so I think, with food, and sometimes I have a terrible relationship with food,” right? And just kind of that back and forth. This is very interesting.

Sam: Well, and I’m thinking, you know, folks who maybe have more of an anxious attachment to their caregivers. It’s like you said, Ashley, here comes Diet Culture in some authoritative voice, “You have to do this.”

Vanessa: Offering security.

Sam: Yeah, like, offering security and stability and, “Hey, you can trust me.” And I can see how tempting it would be when your attachment style, I mean, you might be more vulnerable to sort of fall into that trap.

Vanessa: It’s so interesting. Also, I was thinking about how attachment is having this moment and people are craving more information, trying to understand their own attachment. Even that kind of speaks to some insecurity in the world that, you know, like, there’s a desire to hold on to something, “Define me, tell me what’s wrong so I can fix it.” And we talked, in the presentation we gave where we met Ashley, we talked a lot about the world at large just being so insecurely attached at the moment. And how do we find stability and security when that’s going on around us. And diet culture absolutely fits into that.

Sam: That’s so true. That the culture right now, all of the insecurity that, no matter what your attachment style is, we’re all sort of facing. But I’m curious, what’s your perspective on— I mean, depending on your attachment style, how might someone navigate this very uncertain, these uncertain sort of times?

Kathryn: I think Vanessa’s point is that there’s a lot of charlatans, right? Like, false prophet types that wanna tell you that they have an answer. And I would say, like, in our work with clients, we really try to stay focused on, “Anybody who’s telling you that there’s kind of an external way of being or answer. ‘If you follow this script, this will make you happier, healthier, you know, more—‘”

Sam: Lovable.

Kathryn: Yes.

Sam: Worthy.

Kathryn: Valuable, exactly, thank you. That that’s a real red flag, right? That, like, that inherent value just exists, you don’t have to pay for it, you don’t have to change yourself for it. Like, that’s just implicitly there in us as humans. And that, yes, if you are searching to find a closer connection to yourself or a way to be resilient in the face of a lot of chaotic destabilizing things that are happening in our modern world, consumerism, or diet culture, or the things in that vein, ain’t it! And they really are, you know, that’s a fairy tale gone wrong, you know. And really just coming to, it can be many things. Obviously, we offer therapy and that’s what we know how to do, to be able to find a way to repair some of those maybe early insecure attachments. And then tolerate a world that, like, quite frankly might continue to be an insecure one, and one that has the… we say, like, “It’s lost the plot.” And how do you stay connected to yourself in a way that helps you get close to the people who really see you, who really know you, who really make you feel understood. And that’s secure attachment, right? And you can do that no matter the circumstances.

Sam: Mhm. I love that.

Vanessa: Yeah. But we talk a lot about going slow with clients. Like she said, you know what we know, what we do, we offer therapy, and in particular relational therapy. And really trying to teach people how to be in relationships when, you know, they had a parent who maybe was avoided, and so they couldn’t really learn a safe way to connect. And so we think it’s a long process, and individual therapy, you know, has its limits. We also think group therapy is a really great place to be practicing those attachments and kind of holding on to relationships in a different way. And getting to make mistakes and talk about what that feels like in a very safe environment, because that’s so rare, we just don’t do that in our day to day. If you’re in the therapy world, like, we’re super lucky that we get to. But so many people, I mean, it’s just, it’s second nature to us at this point. But it’s like learning a new language to be in a safe relationship.

Sam: Mhm.

Ashley: Mhm. And so, what you’re saying, both of you, Kathryn and Vanessa, is that someone that might start out with that anxious attachment, or that avoidant, or disorganized, there is opportunity for growth into a more secure attachment, both with themselves and with others. And with food!

Vanessa: And with food, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Kathryn and I— I’m gonna call you Kate and Kathryn, sorry— we both worked in treatment centers, so we know the need to tackle behaviors, you know, when someone’s struggling with an eating disorder, obviously. But we think about long term work as really doing exactly what you said, Ashley, is like, getting under the hood of the car and understanding, “Hey, where did this go wrong or right? And how can we help you heal that?” And we think that through relationships, safe ones, you know, we can sort of, yeah, move from insecure or avoid attachments, disorganized— I mean, I’ve seen it happen where folks really start to tolerate being in a relationship in a way where, they show up, they have needs, they express when they’re let down. You know, so all of those things are really demonstrative of security, and it’s definitely possible.

Sam: Mhm. We talk— Ashley and I talk a lot, I think almost on every episode, about how healing happens in connection. And I think so many people forget, especially when there’s so much “Self-Help” sort of stuff out there. It’s like, “You can do this by yourself,” when actually, it’s like practicing this within the context of a relationship, whether it’s with your therapist or in a group setting, that’s really where the healing happens.

Kathryn: Yeah, I’ll echo that. That there, we want, like, whether it’s technology or these advancements, like, we just want an answer fast and with certainty. And there is obviously room for doing your own work, you know, gaining insight, self-awareness, reading self-help books is, like, there’s nothing wrong with that, right?

Sam: Right, right.

Kathryn: Having good boundaries, those are great things. But there is a balance of… relationships are, yeah, they’re messy, right? Like, especially any parent will tell you, like, there’s just so many emotions and so many moments of, “Man, I totally screwed that up,” and also, like, moments of repair and that deepening of the relationship. So, it’s like, self-help within a vacuum can still be very lonely, right? That like, if you’ve got great boundaries, but those walls are so high that it’s hard to tolerate any amount of distress in relationships, that has its limitations too. So, you know, I think that that is, like, more and more, especially, like, since the pandemic, all these things are really coming to light in a cool way, right? Where we’re sort of, like, reflecting on like, “Whoa, we all went through this, like, collective trauma, many, multiple collective traumas. And how did we get here? And what do we do to kind of find our base, and be able to stay in community and relationships, and there’s just, like, so much focus on that right now. Which is amazing and great. It’s also a lot more tricky and slippery than the sort of, the like, what the eating disorder offers, right? Like, it’s so predictable, it’s so straightforward in certain respects, can be messy, but then you can kind of have that be in secret, not really on display necessarily. But in relationships, you’re vulnerable, you’re seen, you’re having to really embrace your complicated parts with another person. And that is a hard thing to kind of convince people to sign on for, right? Like…

Sam: Totally. You know, I’m thinking a lot about social media. You know, we’re talking about, like, you know, how we’re in this era of like disconnection, and I think so many of us has have turned to social media for connection. And I’m wondering, as we know, there’s so much research about, you know, the potential harm of social media, but I’m curious what your perspectives are around, you know, someone who maybe is more insecurely attached, in what ways does social media help, and in what ways can it be harmful?

Vanessa: You know, when you mentioned social media I was thinking about teens for some reason, and I was thinking that there’s all those new recommendations about prolonging the, you know, being abstinent from social media until a certain age. And I think it’s, like, 17 or something that people are recommending now? Yeah. And when you said, you know, “So, if you’re insecurely attached and searching for something, you know, how can social media help or harm?” I was thinking about authenticity and how no wonder the recommendations or guidelines would be, like, something like 17, because teens don’t— I mean, the idea of authenticity and being able to show up how you are? Like, oh, as a teenager, that’s terrifying. That’s not gonna happen. Especially not on social media. So, I think it’s a massively complex issue, but I can imagine the pitfalls of social media, if you’re not securely attached and don’t have the safety, you know, within yourself to kind of show up however you are, that it could be really a dangerous place. But if you maybe are looking for a connection and have more of a sense of who you are, like, I think that you could find community on, you know, use social media as a way to get more of that need met. But gosh, I think about having a way to really be checking yourself, like, “Am I being honest? Like, how am I performing? How is this making me feel?” Like, just a basic question of like, “Do I feel— is it yucky after I get off social media or is it yummy?” And being really aware of that. The landscape of social media is very precarious, feels very dangerous in a lot of ways. Seductive, oh gosh. Yeah.

Kathryn: So new.

Vanessa: Right?

Kathryn: All of us, you know, really when you think about it— I didn’t want to cut you off Ashley, but just, Vanessa and I were passing a podcast back and forth of Sanjay Gupta, who’s like, I think he’s a CNN anchor. And he was talking about, he has three teenage girls, and he and his wife were on the podcast discussing each girl and each of their experiences with social media and talking, they were discussing talking to other parents around, “What were the choices that you made? And what are the regrets that you might have? Or, you know, were there things that you would do differently?” So, I think we have to have a lot of compassion for ourselves that this is brand new, right? And parents who have kids that are 10, 15, 20 years older than my kids, didn’t have the luxury of all of this perspective. And it probably will be one of those things that eventually there will be sort of customary norms of, you know, what most people do and what most people think is appropriate for kids. But then it’s also like, who is your child? And how able are you to have those— I mean, the whole idea of attachment, right, is like, “Know your kids,” right? Really know them, get to figure out what makes them tick and help them to flourish in those ways that, you know, everybody deserves to be able to bloom on their own timeline. And what does that, what does that mean for kids with technology? I think it means something different, probably, on some level for everyone. I know even between Vanessa and I, we have different levels of comfort with social media, you know, and how we use it, and how much we can check in around what it’s making us feel or how we’re interfacing with it.

Ashley: I was gonna ask, like, I know social media, obviously it’s available to all of us, right? And we know that really in adolescence, I mean, they’re just soaking it up. It’s in every aspect of their life, right? Even the use of apps, and I know, like, schools are now providing, like, iPads you know. And so there’s things available all the time everywhere. So with that understanding, what have you all noticed maybe with the group of adolescents, you know? Has there been a shift in attachment styles? Have you seen, I think you spoke to a mental health crisis maybe, what have you all seen um when working with teens and adolescents?

Vanessa: A lot of anxiety. I mean, I think that it’s just a really anxious time and, you know, I don’t think social media is the cause of it, I think that it’s probably sometimes— sometimes, not always, but sometimes, gasoline on the fire. But yeah, I mean, I think there’s just so much anxiety and probably, you know, it’s kind of going back to that idea, the insecurity of the world at large. Like, times are, it’s difficult. And, you know, if you’ve got parents who are anxious about the state of the world and not just, like, obvious things that are really scary. But just, like, connecting with one another, that’s so different than it used to be. You know, I think we mentioned that in the presentation, Ashley, as well, but we used to be able to have access to each other in such easy ways. And then now it feels like, yeah, we have “access.” I’m using air quotes, I realize you can’t see that. But there’s “access,” you know, on a phone, but is it real, it’s not real, you know. Maybe you like someone’s message, or you can track them and know where they are. But my family in the south of Italy has, like, real access with one another. You know, they’re walking to their neighbor’s house for cherries and trading them for cheese. I mean, it’s just, it’s a different world. And real connection, I mean, they actually take care of one another, and they go slow, and I think that we’ve lost so much of that that it’s hard to actually feel that connection. You know, when we go so quick in our life, in our day to day, and really don’t take time to understand what’s going on with our friends. You know, teens know that, like, teens feel that. So, there’s just, I feel like there’s so much anxiety.

Ashley: Well, and I would even, I even wonder, like, I’m thinking about somebody texting me, even. Like, it’s different when I get an email, especially on my work account, right? I can close my computer, I have a separate work phone so I can put my work phone away and not look at it at night. But if someone texts me, I feel this, like, rush, right? And if I don’t respond immediately, I feel like I’m letting them down. And so just, like, being, I mean, I just think about attachment with that, like this feeling, the need to be available to everyone at all times so that I do have that connection. But then it’s overwhelming and I don’t know what to do with that, you know? Maybe that was a rant. I don’t know.

Vanessa: No, yeah. I mean, and then, how authentic can you show up, you know, in those relationships when it’s just like, “I’m responding, you know, I’m just kind of participating because it feels like this is what we do, you know, we respond,” But it might not feel…

Kathryn: It’s a volley.

Vanessa: Yeah, the volley back and forth. It might not feel, you know, genuine or authentic.

Kathryn: It makes me think a lot about, like, obviously teens, the impact of just how, you know, they’re still really new to figuring out who they are on the planet. And so that influence, and the fast pace like Vanessa’s talking about, just like, it’s part of their, it’s their world, right? Like they are, this is the world that they’re coming into. So, it’s like we can’t talk about avoidant or anxious. It’s like, if we’re overly restrictive about it or if we’re just no holds barred, I’m totally avoiding caring about this or being involved, obviously a bad methodology to use, but it’s also making me think about dating through apps, right? And all of that, those early connections with people are very text based, right? That you text for a few days, usually before you kind of determine whether you want to go out, and the limitations on that, and the anxiety that that provokes, or the sort of avoidant attachment style that comes out in those relationships. I think, like, it definitely does fuel more of those insecure attachment styles than meeting somebody at the bar who was there, or meeting, you know, where you can pick up on those social cues and their affect and “Oh, this person kind of like, ehh… yeah, actually the way I see them talking to another person makes me not really want to engage in the same way,” or being able to assess with different data points, why wouldn’t it make us feel more anxious or avoidant? Right? It’s so tenuous and this very limited amount of information that you then have to base a bigger decision on, it affects us and how we interact for sure.

Sam: Well, and also, I imagine the fear of putting yourself out there authentically on a dating app, especially when you’re sort of swiping through and it seems like everyone’s putting their best foot forward. And, you know, showing up authentically on social media is not easy for someone who, you know, has a non-secure attachment. Well, I think it’s probably hard for everyone, no matter what your attachment style is!

Kathryn: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa: Yeah.

Sam: Totally. Wow. This is so, this is really fascinating, Ashley, before we met today, Ashley and I were just, we were just, like, overflowing with questions about attachment style. But you know, one thing I’m curious about, you know, I know that you both work with clients who have eating disorders and I was wondering if you can talk a little bit about, well, first of all, how attachment styles show up in eating disorder, recovery and treatment, but also the family and how you might include the family. Or how you get the family to become involved. I would just love to learn more about that.

Vanessa: Yeah, it’s hard. It’s a billion dollar question. I, you know, I think there’s some ideas and it’s not prescriptive in any way, but I think about often with attachment and eating disorders, the work that we do with our clients who might be restricting food, how they’re restricting themselves in relationships as well. So, they might, you know, be avoidantly attached, or they might be disorganized, they might end up, you know, being really aware of their needs and, like, feeling like that’s too much and retreating, and kind of having this, almost binge and purge with their attachment as well. Like, “I need it, I have all of it, and now I have none of it.” So, I think it can show up in a very, as you would think, kind of straightforward way. But it’s also not prescriptive and people with all sorts of attachment issues can have all sorts of disordered eating. And it can make, you know, understanding the family dynamics, challenging. And knowing how to approach family if there is an avoidant attachment within the family, you know, how do we tread lightly so that we don’t scare them? You know, it’s sort of like giving the metaphor of, you know, nourishing people in a way that’s enough, good enough for them. Like, they might only be able to take in a little bit at a time, and so that might look like, you know, trying to coach a client to talk to their parent in a way that’s like, you know, stating what you need and also expecting and tolerating the discomfort when you don’t get it. And how to, like, slowly ask for what you’re— or slowly expect that to change over time. I don’t know if this is answering any of your questions, but I’m just, I guess I’m stuck on a case and thinking about how we worked through some of that.

Sam: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Kathryn?

Kathryn: Sorry, just to glom onto that. I think it’s really helpful oftentimes when working with, whether it’s adult clients or teens, think about that early experience, right? That in a securely attached relationship with an early caregiver, you are going to be conveying to this child, “No matter what your needs are, even if I can’t meet that need right now, you’re important and that need, I see you and I validate that you have that need, and we will talk about it, or we will meet it later, or we’ll do it right now,” or, you know, whatever it is. Somewhere in there with an insecure attachment, that person got the messaging that the needs were not okay to have, right? That, like, there was something about that that was overwhelming maybe or uncomfortable, and that was something that they had to learn how to either fill up in some other way or reduce the desire for it, right? And so, I think it’s a really easy jump when you look at it that way to think about food, right? That when— because it doesn’t mean that if you have an anxious attachment style, your only behavior is to binge, right, to try to fill up. It could mean that that anxious attachment style makes you feel like, “I just want to reduce that feeling as much as I can and think about something else or, you know, ruminate about another thing,” and that actually ends up making you avoid eating. Like, that there are ways in which that can resolve itself and help to emotionally regulate that aren’t, it’s not a direct 1 to 1, right? Or if you’re an avoidant, if you have an avoidant attachment style, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re only restricting. It might mean you’re avoiding through binging because you’re numbing out and just, like, not feeling your feelings, right? When we talk about a disorganized attachment style, like, my analytic roots make me want to go to this comparison of kind of a doing and undoing. Like, “For a moment, I felt like I was okay to get my need met, and then immediately after I felt like, ‘Oh no, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t.” So, I might do something and then I might try to immediately undo it. Like, “I step into it, I chew the food but then I spit it out,” or “I eat, but then I compensate with exercise,” or “I binge and purge.” And that doesn’t mean that if you’re binging and purging you necessarily have a disorganized attachment style, it’s just a way to kind of look at what’s happening on an emotional level, and is there a way that we can, like, speak to that within you? Right? That like, you’re gonna, “We’ve noticed a pattern that when you meet a need, you’re either going way over the line with that need because you’re so fearful that it’s never gonna be met again, or you’re telling yourself it’s ok and then you’re telling yourself it’s not ok, or you just won’t even walk up to it, you won’t even talk to, like, you won’t even speak to it at all. It’s just cut off from you.” And how do we start to, like, get into that stuff about inherent value that like, “Okay, we missed a step there. You didn’t get the message that it’s okay for you to be heard and to have whatever feelings you’re having.” And that’s— obviously, in a treatment center, when there’s an acute issue, there’s a lot of focus on just behavioral change, right? To like, get someone stable. But in that longer term outpatient work that Vanessa and I love to do, we want to swim around in all of the messiness of how that got rooted in your conception of yourself and who you are in the world.

Sam: Hm.

Ashley: That interesting what you’re saying, yeah. I was just thinking about, like, a client sitting with you and having you be able to reflect back maybe their patterns, or what you’re noticing, or like give them the language of some of this broken attachment and attachment wounding, and how valuable and validating that has got to feel to that person. And when they feel validated, when they feel value, how much that builds security within themselves and just how, I mean, truly like how discovering, and kind of uncovering, and peeling back these layers of attachment, and really just kind of learning “my style” but also feeling seen, maybe, by my therapist for the first time. Like, just how beautiful that can be and how much help that can be for the client, to start to build up that security within themselves and that ego strength within themselves.

Sam: Yeah. It might be the first relationship where they realize, “My needs actually matter and it’s ok to get them met,” and that’s so powerful.

Ashley: “And I can vocalize them.”

Sam: Yeah, “and I can vocalize them.”

Vanessa: Yeah. I think you can vocalize when they’re not met, and that’s ok too.

Sam: Yeah. Exactly.

Kathryn: And then we like to say, like, “Take it a step further.” And obviously, like, we’re talking about relationships with caregivers that, there’s an assumption that they were well-meaning to a certain degree, but there are situations where there’s trauma and there’s, you know, there’s really that needs to be validated in a way that’s not extending the same idea of a justifiable reaction to, like, one’s— and maybe you could say there’s always a justifiable reaction to one’s family system, but, like, those kinds kinds of wounds are not really what we’re referring to. But we like to talk about, People come from other people,” right? Who came from other people, who came from other people, who came from other people, right? You’re just in a long lineage of how those family systems affected you, and your parents, and your grandparents, and great grandparents, and all that, those people in the past. And being able to really look at it through the lens of like, “Yeah, my dad is, like, classically super avoidant, because nobody ever taught him to think about what he was feeling or to think about what other people were feeling,” right? Or just these, this is the stereotype, right? Is the avoidant dad and the anxious mom who’s overfunctioning and, you know, trying to do all the things that then can be limiting for that… clipping the wings of the person potentially, right? That we’ll see sometimes where it’s like, “Okay mom, I know you’re trying your best and you’re really trying to be loving and caring, but you’re also really preventing this kiddo from building confidence, and making mistakes, and all those things,” right? That, like, when we can look at it through that lens of attachment, it does increase empathy, and compassion, and being able to, like, see our own folks for, you know, what their imperfect situation might have been as well. And I think that’s really empowering for people. I know that’s a tricky word to use, but it can be helpful for people to see it as, “I’m actually not alone in this, I’m just one of many people who struggle to figure out, like, how to be connected in this world.”

Ashley: Yeah. Which one of you mentioned— Vanessa, it may have been you, you mentioned group work at the very beginning of this. And just— oh, I love group work for that so much. Because they, you know, it’s really, you do finally understand that “I’m not alone” in this kind of scenario or in this feeling, and you get to work out some of your stuff, with other people and vice versa.

Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah, Sam, you mentioned, you know, the therapeutic individual therapy relationship might be the first place of sort of really being seen, and acknowledging needs, and having those needs met, or having them let down in a tolerable way, and being able to repair. And group therapy is sort of the next step, where you get to not only do that with potentially your therapist or a different therapist, but also with, you know, group members, and express concerns, anger, frustration, joy, all the things. Have, you know, shared experiences. And then use that as a launching pad for how to engage, and what to ask for, how to get those needs met, all those things, with other relationships. It is incredibly… I mean, it’s transformational.

Sam: It’s really about gradually getting practice, you know, connecting in a new way with the people around you. And maybe starting with that safe trusted therapist and then moving on to other relationships. So powerful.

Kathryn: And I think to circle back to this idea of social media or technology, we haven’t figured it out there in the best ways, right? Like it, there are spaces like that. But I think doing the group work, doing the— being in that safe environment with a facilitator, if you’re really trying to work on interpersonal stuff, just has… it’s organic, right? It’s just, it’s a bunch of people in a room together and that is very healing, healing of the loneliness.

Vanessa: Yeah. Gosh. And it teaches such distress tolerance, that we don’t have, we don’t have those skills that are— it’s not taught anymore. Like we just, things are automatic. We can, you know, we all get frustrated in our house when the TV doesn’t work within a minute. Like, no one has the ability to tolerate any distress anymore. And so, you know, being in a group with other members and not having your needs met, you know, by a facilitator because there’s five other people, like, what a great skill to learn. But it, it’s still okay, and there’s still space, and you still have meaning, and you have to show up next so you can talk about it.

Ashley: Yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you all, we’re kind of coming down to the end of this. But, if you might suggest both for somebody that is interested in learning more maybe about their attachment style or background, and/or both for a professional, what might be some good next steps for those listening today?

Vanessa: Hm.

Kathryn: Find a good therapist.

Ashley: Finding a therapist, yeah.

Vanessa: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley: Yeah! And how do we get in touch with you all?

Vanessa: Yeah. KeepCalmATX.com. I mean, yeah, I think finding a therapist that you feel safe with is the name of the game, and shopping around until you do. I mean, we’re all great but we’re not great for everyone. And I think making sure that you feel like, “Oh, this is a place that I could grow, and see myself getting challenged, and challenging.” And group therapy, absolutely. I don’t know. I think that there’s also— I’m blanking on some really good books. I’ve been reading a lot of Dr. Becky’s stuff, and I think that there’s something that’s so not— like, she talks about attachment, and it’s very accessible, and it’s also like the “good enough” stuff just feels so important right now.

Kathryn: I’ve been needing to hear that.

Vanessa: Yeah!

Sam: Alright, well, thank you both for joining today.

Vanessa: Thank you for having us!

Sam: Thank you for listening to All Bodies. All Foods. I hope you enjoyed this deep dive into attachment theory. If you loved this episode, you can support us by subscribing, rating, leaving a review sharing with others. And if you want more, you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. Our handle is at @RenfrewCenter. For free education, events, trainings, webinars, resources and blogs, head over to our website www.RenfrewCenter.com. And if you have any comments or questions you’d like us to answer in a future episode, be sure to email them to [email protected]. I hope you join us next time on All Bodies. All Foods.

Ashley: Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies. All Foods. presented by The Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.

Sam: We’re looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.

[Bouncy theme music plays.]